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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2024 10:19:21 GMT -6
No debate here. Just some added info. We now know where this occurred... Benteen, Letter to Col Goldin,1892 "While enroute to the highest point on the river bluffs in that vicinity, Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the 'Halt' for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal, but went to the highest point of bluffs, the battalion being in columns of fours. ON arriving at elevation, I then had my first glimpse of the Indian village from the height. Still I saw enough to cause me to think that perhaps this time we had bitten off quite as much as we would be able to well chew.Then I got the guidon of my own trooop and jammed it down in a pile of stones which were on the high point, thinking perhaps the fluttering of same might attract attention of Custer's commands if any were in close proximity. Reno had gotten up to the point where I was. However, I ordered French to put his troop in line on a bluff near, which was at right angles with the course of the river, and then for the purpose of showing where our command was, if there were any other bodies of our troops in sight."Last one, per Diane. I think that we should think through that deployment. It would be helpful. Which direction do you think the troops faced at arms? Were they going to shoot over Horizon Ridge from behind it ala artillery and Bows and arrows, or perhaps just blast away into the ridge and blow it away.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 1, 2024 10:22:45 GMT -6
Thats is really interesting stuff - good find!
Hare was back and forth between the Weirs and all over the advance. Curious now what HE saw and knew, vs told.
Will have to dig up Hare v Camp again.
The timing would be key. Is this after Weir was retreating? Very Likely not - cause no mention of that, and its still early.
Benteen by now had seen indians and the village from Weir's Hill, just like Weir, Edgerly and Custer & Martin before him.
Maybe he NEVER went as far down the bluffs as I even thought just yesterday?
THAT would make the most sense, as troop placement wherever has been a bit confusing. This actually clears it up.
Hmmm...
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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2024 10:26:09 GMT -6
Now, you know that the Mod frowns upon these heated exchanges so get languid and real, please. Yes, she does. In case you guys haven't noticed, you've driven everyone else away from the boards. Please take your debate to PMs or emails. Diane It wasn't me or us who drove Richard away. He was tediously touchy about his work with Harper's closing chapter and went pitbull. I know you think a lot of him. His prose is excellent. Maybe he found a new jumper or jersey. Don't blame the wonderfully scrumptious moi, for longings and tiffs. He was touchy about his work and as arrogant as some people get. I remember him trying to squeeze me on the topic of Terry in Tullock's when I could not in good conscience reveal stuff I had found. God, he could be subtle for a brick.
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 1, 2024 10:33:06 GMT -6
No debate here. We now know where this occured. Benteen, Letter to Col Goldin,1892 "While enroute to the highest point on the river bluffs in that vicinity, Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the 'Halt' for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal, but went to the highest point of bluffs, the battalion being in columns of fours. ON arriving at elevation, I then had my first glimpse of the Indian village from the height. Still I saw enough to cause me to think that perhaps this time we had bitten off quite as much as we would be able to well chew.Then I got the guidon of my own trooop and jammed it down in a pile of stones which were on the high point, thinking perhaps the fluttering of same might attract attention of Custer's commands if any were in close proximity. Reno had gotten up to the point where I was. However, I ordered French to put his troop in line on a bluff near, which was at right angles with the course of the river, and then for the purpose of showing where our command was, if there were any other bodies of our troops in sight."Last one, per Diane. One, you are again taking Benteen's word, in spite of the egregious falsehoods he told, falsehoods that have been identified by scores of historians/scholars. You have acknowledged that Benteen egregiously lied when he said Custer's force was destroyed by the time Martin arrived with Custer's written order. Thus, I don't understand how you can then take Benteen's word to support your arguments. In any credible trial, when a witness is caught making numerous demonstrably false statements on crucial issues, the jury will logically and understandably reject most or all of his other statements and will not use his testimony as the basis for their verdict. Two, your arguments ignore the points that Harper and others have made. For one thing, the horses would have been far, far more noticeable than any guideon stuck in a pile of stones. This is one reason that Harper and others doubt Benteen's guideon story. Three, although Benteen told the RCOI that he heard no firing and saw none of Custer's soldiers, other people who were in the same area said they did hear firing and did see some of Custer's soldiers. Four, I think it needs to be understood that Weir reached Weir Point (i.e., the area that Benteen described in his RCOI testimony) quite a while before Benteen arrived, and even longer before Reno arrived.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 1, 2024 10:37:56 GMT -6
Ah - you believe Benteen now? Harper said that - cause Benteen did: Q. Describe that guidon you spoke of and how far it could be seen. A. It could not be seen as far as the horses. It might attract attention by its fluttering or by the point of brass on the end, though the horses would be more noticeable objects than the guidon.
Sure - except for this: Benteen was NOT at Weir Point. IF he was near it, it wasn't for long. Clearly it is NOT the area Benteen was describing! As Harper told you. You MUST get this right! In his advance position, BENTEEN WAS NOT AT ON A PEAK AT WEIR POINT. SO CLEARLY HE WAS NOT DESCRIBING THAT LOCATION IN HIS TESTIMONY. Since he was NOT describing things about Weir Point but about somewhere else - he was not lying - at least not about what he could SEE from where he actually was. Reno wasn't out there either...(or Wallace @ssh). See Hare, who was sent, from ‘ About a half mile behind’. Next... What Hare saw after being sent to furthest point with D... While out in the advance with D co. the indians were thick over on Custer Ridge and were firing and at that moment thought Custer was fighting them.vs."They replied: ‘The last we saw of him he was going down that high bluff towards the lower end of the village"Did Hare actually say that, or just Wallace? Does it matter? ... Wallace A. Soon after Captain Benteen came up while waiting for the pack train, most of the Indians left the bottom we came from, some of them occupying the points between us and where General Custer’s fight took place, the remainder went back into the village. There was a high hill which concealed the upper part of the village from us. After going into the village they crossed over and engaged in the fight with General Custer but we could not see them crossing on account of the high ground. We could only see the upper end of the village from our position. {see WMC re:SSH} A. We were going to find out where General Custer had gone to. I went to a point where I could see where General Custer’s battle took place. Indians were all over the country but no firing was going on. {See WMC re: SSH} There was no particular disturbance, all was quiet. Captain Moylan was unable to keep up with his wounded and the Indians were coming back with a heavy force and as he could not keep up with us we had to go back to him. A. Yes, sir, and I was then assigned to a position, on the right on a high point and from there I could see all over where Custer’s battle had occurred, there were lots of Indians there, riding around quietly, no firing going on. They seemed to be moving back our way. {See WMC re: SSH views} Q. State whether or not Captain Weir’s command returned and when. A. I am not sure but I think we met his company as the other part of the command moved out. I don’t know whether he had got back before we moved out or not. I think he was very near where we started from when we moved out towards him.
My company was sent to a high point to the right.
View from SSH: WMC, from SSH 'the fence around the monument is easily made out...' 'fence posts around the cemetery on Custer Hill are easily made out'Hmm...WMC here I come! On edit:not much else from Wallace...maybe its here? www.academia.edu/651422/Letters_from_the_Field_Wallace_at_the_Little_Big_Horn
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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2024 10:42:51 GMT -6
Anysways. Question to the board. Was William Sellew, in fact, with Custer's march along the Rosebud from Far West? Why does that matter? He carried despatches to the Far West, from Custer, down the east side of Tullock Creek.
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 1, 2024 11:23:40 GMT -6
What Hare saw while at furthest point with D... View AttachmentWhile out in the advance with D co. the indians were thick over on Custer Ridge and were firing and at that moment thought Custer was fighting them.vs."They replied: ‘The last we saw of him he was going down that high bluff towards the lower end of the village"Did Hare actually say that, or just Wallace? Does it matter? ... Wallace A. Soon after Captain Benteen came up while waiting for the pack train, most of the Indians left the bottom we came from, some of them occupying the points between us and where General Custer’s fight took place, the remainder went back into the village. There was a high hill which concealed the upper part of the village from us. After going into the village they crossed over and engaged in the fight with General Custer but we could not see them crossing on account of the high ground. We could only see the upper end of the village from our position.A. We were going to find out where General Custer had gone to. I went to a point where I could see where General Custer’s battle took place. Indians were all over the country but no firing was going on. There was no particular disturbance, all was quiet. Captain Moylan was unable to keep up with his wounded and the Indians were coming back with a heavy force and as he could not keep up with us we had to go back to him. Q. State whether or not Captain Weir’s command returned and when. A. I am not sure but I think we met his company as the other part of the command moved out. I don’t know whether he had got back before we moved out or not. I think he was very near where we started from when we moved out towards him.
Met Weir coming back, = everyone retreating - yet Wallace INFERS he went to the Peaks? Not likely, that. So - he must have went to say SSH which DID allow a view of the field.
Hmm...WMC here I come! When we consider RCOI testimony, I think we need to remember that Lt. DeRudio later admitted that the officers who testified at the RCOI colluded ahead of time to shape their accounts to help Reno and to preserve the honor of the 7th Cavalry. James Donovan's chapter on the problems with the RCOI in A Terrible Glory is enlightening on this point and is the most thorough discussion on the subject that I have seen. I agree with Donovan that Lt. Wallace was one of the worst offenders in this regard, ranking third behind Reno and Benteen in falsifying, distorting, and omitting facts. As many here know, at the RCOI, Wallace falsely claimed to have been riding with Reno when Custer gave Reno his attack orders, when in fact Wallace was not riding with Reno at the time. Also, Wallace was the only participant who supported Reno and Benteen's denials of hearing heavy firing to the north.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2024 11:33:32 GMT -6
Wallace was protecting Benteen. They all were and Reno climbed onto the coat-tails.
Richard Hardoff, On the Little Bighorn with Walter Camp: A Collection of Walter Mason Camp's Letters Notes and Opinions on Custer's Last Fight. (El Segundo, CA: Upton and Sons, 2002), p. 241. - Lieutenant Charles DeRudio told Walter Mason Camp "that there was a private understanding between a number of officers that they would do all they could to save Reno."
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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2024 11:46:44 GMT -6
The biggest distortion and enduring mislead was the time of the place issue for which Wallace was recalled, and basically played games referring to Maguire's itinery of events on 25th June, 1876. This was obviously second hand and mentions Benteen, which is how the scam that the regiment went to the attack in the vicinity of the village, at 2pm came about and suits those it suits. Difficulty subtle slight of something or other.
2pm was pretty accurately the time at which Benteen told Maguire that his battalion was near the village - ie near Ford A. The time mystery is solved. This was used to support Wallace's time testimony but Maguire was gone, left Chicago, and so the information could not be properly verified. The point of it all was to undermine Whittaker's direct accusations based upon time data he had obtained from records, letters and news reports.
Basically, 12:15 became 2:15 for Wallace and he got away with it. Today, what does it matter? It doesn't but it's just great to understand wtf went on. Wallace's times were at odds with all others but he was the regiment's assigned time-keeper. He threw a spanner into the works and enjoyed doing it. Obvious once the testimony on recall, is contexted. He protected Benteen. That meant look out for Reno.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 2, 2024 5:17:35 GMT -6
No debate here. I edited to add some VERY important info that is well worth getting out... YES! That is GREAT stuff, Mike! The highest point is "Weir's Hill". The other ridge is "Martin's Ridge". Sharpshooter's Ridge is there too.WHOOP THERE IT IS!!! You can SEE them in these pics!:
Utley Park Service imageHoly Cow - We now KNOW just where THIS occurred ! 2 set-ups of troops at 2 different locations! It all makes even more sense now! Cool things to note, which are also visible in the NPS ridge picture: - how close the river is to Weir's Hill, how far away at the Point. - how close the ridge & Hill are to the retreat, just below the DeWolf marker - the line of bluffs between Martin's Ridge/Weir's Hill and Weir point - Cedar Coulee behind - Reno Hill and bluffs south of Martin's Ridge - other high points around, including SSH/R - that by 1891, the high points under discussion were all at 3500' el. John McGuire, Camp interview "Did pack train start toward Custer when Godfrey, Benteen, and others moved down that way?
Yes, went to top of ridge where could see Weir out ahead."Benteen, Letter to Col Goldin,1892 "While enroute to the highest point on the river bluffs in that vicinity, Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the 'Halt' for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal, but went to the highest point of bluffs, the battalion being in columns of fours. ON arriving at elevation, I then had my first glimpse of the Indian village from the height. Still I saw enough to cause me to think that perhaps this time we had bitten off quite as much as we would be able to well chew.Then I got the guidon of my own troop and jammed it down in a pile of stones which were on the high point, thinking perhaps the fluttering of same might attract attention of Custer's commands if any were in close proximity. Reno had gotten up to the point where I was. However, I ordered French to put his troop in line on a bluff near, which was at right angles with the course of the river, and then for the purpose of showing where our command was, if there were any other bodies of our troops in sight."Hare, re: the POINTThe three advanced troops, D, M, and K in the order named, reached the hills overlooking Medicine Tail Coulee and the region to the north M, K and H cos. were strung out along bluffs behind Co. D parallel with river but no co. quite up to Co. D.
Godfrey, re: the POINTIn the advance toward Custer, Co. D went out first, then M, K and H. These men were at intervals along the high ridge and two high peaks, in a line approximately north and south, M behind D and K behind M. {so where's H?..} Benteen did not remain there long, but went back and joined Reno, who was coming up with the rest of the troops.McDougall On the advance Benteen's men were by file along ridge parallel with river. The pack train merely got started before it was ordered to fall back.
Davern A. The column halted and Major Reno sent for Captain Weir.
Hare {Reno} was going to that highest point when I went away {he marked it pt 5} "Benteen and Reno were discussing matters. They were standing about 1/2 mile in rear of Co. D and
Benteen suggested to Reno that they fall back as they were in a poor place for defense. Benteen remarked that Indians could pass around them to the east and also by river flat at the west and would soon be in their rear if did not fall back." … When I returned I told Major Reno what Captain Weir had said to me and I looked up and saw Captain Weir coming joining the column. Q. Did he {Weir} come back and join Major Reno’s column on the hill marked “5”? A. Yes, sir.
... "Major Reno said that position would not do to make his fight on and he selected a point further up on the bluff, and ordered Captain Weir’s and Captain French’s companies to cover the retreat back to that point..."We KNOW Reno went to Weir’s Hill and met Benteen there. We KNOW Reno did NOT go to Weir Peaks. He sent Hare. We KNOW Custer got HIS 1st glimpse of the village from the same high point (7/G)!! We KNOW Martin and plenty of others described it just the same way and named it and located it exactly!! We KNOW Benteen & troop were originally 'last in line along the line of bluffs'!IT ALL makes sense! EXCITING to finally get all this right, and weir. Wallace Q. Did that column of Major Reno’s join in the fight or skirmish there?A. He prepared to take part in it. My company was sent to a high point to the right. {remember D CO. was to the right at the crescent re: troops at the Point i.e. NOT here at the Hill} Another company came up on my left and assignments were made. The command then occupied two almost parallel ridges with no way of defending the space between them.Q. The command was separated there?A. Not exactly. It was in two lines with the end next to the Indians open and the command was given to fall back to a better position. Where it came from I don’t know.Q. What was the interval between you and the company on your left?A. Ten or 15 yards. Q. It was a continuous line? A. Yes, sir.Q. Did any part of the command actually engage the enemy?A. I know there was heavy firing on Captain Weir’s company, and I know Captain Godfrey’s company acted as rear guard when the command fell back and they got a heavy fire. There was no firing on the point I occupied at that time.
Reno, report, RCOI I moved to the summit of the highest bluff, but seeing and hearing nothing sent Captain Weir with his company to open communications with him.
{Hare: {Reno} was going to that highest point when I went away {marked pt 5}} A. Before the pack train came up the command was put in position. It was on this hill which I thought would enable everybody to see it, and I kept it there as a nucleus about which these scattered parties could gather, till they all came together. That was the purpose for which I went there.{Hare: He was going to that highest point {marked pt 5} when I went away} When Lieutenant Hare returned from the pack train, I told him to go to Captain Weir who, on his own hook, had moved out his company, and tell him to communicate with General Custer if he could
... Q. Who took that order to Weir to communicate with Custer? A. Lieutenant Hare. Q. When was it that you sent the order to him {Hare} to communicate with General Custer? A. Immediately after I got hold of the pack train, and the wounded had been cared for. Q. Where was the command then? A. All there on the hill.
WHY the on-going confusion about the high points, you may ask? "After the US Army took control of the Reno-Benteen site in 1930, a 5-mile road, now called Battlefield Road, was created connecting it to the Custer Battlefield (Greene, 69). Battlefield Road does not follow an historic alignment, and the lack of sensitivity paid to the historic landscape during its construction between 1938-40 caused damage to the primary landscape. As noted in Jerome Greene’s Stricken Field, an administrative history of the monument, construction of the two lane gravel-based roadway (twenty feet wide with five foot shoulders on each side) “materially affected the original condition of the battlefield and possibly altered interpretive conclusions about the site” due to “the lack of period sensitivity regarding historic landscapes”. (Greene, 69) Construction of a reinforced concrete culvert over Medicine Tail Creek resulted in a significant realignment of the creek channel from its probable 1876 configuration. At Weir Point, a formerly modest dip in the terrain where Reno and Benteen’s forces gathered to watch action on Custer Hill was drastically altered with a road cut.
Finally, grading of the road terminus near the Reno-Benteen memorial likely flattened significant battle-related landforms. (Greene, 69)"
Greene "Similiar construction seems to have demolished several hillocks that appeared on the 1891 topographic map of the field"Last one, per Diane.
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 3, 2024 5:28:31 GMT -6
Dr. Kuhlman, who always bent over backward to be fair to Reno and Benteen, acknowledged that, contrary to Benteen's RCOI claim, he understood the purpose of his scout and how it fit into what Custer intended to do: This should leave no doubt in any unbiased mind that Benteen knew the object of his scout and understood Custer’s plan as far as any plan could as yet have been formulated. He understood that his column was acting as the left flank of the full striking force of the regiment in a reconnaissance in force, and that he was to make certain that no Indians escaped up the valley or remained there as a menace to the flank or rear of the command if the whole body of hostiles elected to fight. (Legend Into History, p. 144)Gordon Harper devoted several pages to Benteen's false claim that he didn't know why Custer sent him on his scout and that his scout was a waste of time, noting, among other things, that Benteen seemed to clearly understand his scout orders in his battle report. Here is a small portion of Harper's observations on the subject: Benteen himself seemed to understand his orders quite clearly prior to his testimony quoted above. In a letter of July 2, 1876 to his wife, he wrote: “I was ordered with 3 Co.’s . . . to go to the left for the purpose of hunting for the valley of the river—Indian camp—or anything I could find.” And on July 4, 1876, also to his wife: “I was ordered . . . to go over the immense hills to the left, in search of the valley, which was supposed to be very near by.”6
In his official report dated July 4, 1876, Benteen had no difficulty in recounting his orders in detail: The directions I received from Lieutenant-Colonel Custer were, to move with my command to the left, to send well-mounted officers with about six men who would ride rapidly to a line of bluffs about five miles to our left and front, with instructions to report at once to me if anything of Indians could be seen from that point. I was to follow the movement of this detachment as rapidly as possible . . . the other instructions, which were, that if in my judgment there was nothing to be seen of Indians, Valleys &c, in the direction I was going, to return with the battalion to the trail the command was following.7 Benteen said much the same in an interview published in the New York Herald on August 8, 1876, and repeated the basic contents of his official report, with a few extra details, in both of the narratives he wrote in the 1890s. It is only in his Reno Inquiry testimony that he mischaracterized his instructions; but it is exactly that testimony which has colored most histories of the Little Horn ever since. (The Fights on the Little Horn, pp. 21-22)Harper also pointed out that Benteen's battle report alone contradicts Benteen's later tale that Custer ordered him to "pitch into anything he came across" during his scout: It must be noted that nothing in Benteen’s orders, notwithstanding his later statements to the contrary, told him to “pitch into anything he came across.” This is evident for the following reasons: 1) his official report mentions nothing of the kind and he would not have omitted something so significant; 2) he was not provided with any medical services or supplies, not even an enlisted medical attendant; 3) Benteen would not have failed to capitalize on that failure, had it truly been an oversight or deliberate act on Custer’s part. (The Fights on the Little Horn, p. 24)
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 3, 2024 9:50:01 GMT -6
HR, my request to take the bickering off the boards wasn't aimed at you, but I'm glad you acknowledged Gordon Richard's contributions to Gordon Harper's book. For those who don't know these characters, the much-quoted Gordon Harper died before the completion of his book, and Gordon Richard graciously edited it and provided the conclusion. It was a tremendous task, and Richard did it all without credit; he received no compensation or thanks for his work.
To the minutiae-men who have hijacked these boards: move on.
Diane
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 4, 2024 12:56:59 GMT -6
So, let me see if I got some of this correct.
Custer did not have to attack the NA village at about 12 noon or 1pm on June 25th. He could have waited till later or even the next day.
There was no coordination between when Reno was sent to attack the South-East end of the village and when Custer would reach (and attack) the North-West end of the village.
Custer thought he may have reached the North-West end of the village when he attempted a crossing at Ford B. But found out that he was wrong.
Then he had to backtrack somewhat and move more towards the North-East (Ford D?). In so doing he alerted the NA’s to his movement and had to further divide his command to support his further movement to the North-East from the attack by the NA’s.
So, it seems like a total lack of reconnaissance on Custer’s part.
He could have sent his scouts out before committing Reno to attack the South-East end of the village to find out the furthest North-West limits of the village that he would have to reach.
Then he could have told Reno something like - give me an hour (or however long it would take a cavalry to travel about 4 miles) and then attack the village.
To me, the whole thing was done without any good preparation or good battle plan.
Custer could have waited till later that day or on the next day to attack the NA village after doing further reconnaissance (as previously stated).
He could have sent his scouts out to find the furthest end of the village in a North-West direction (also as previously stated) before attacking the village.
Perhaps he could have placed his troopers along the North-East side on the higher ground across the river and had his troopers fire across the river down into the NA village? Then placed other troopers on the South-West side of the village to capture the fleeing non-combatants.
Perhaps he could have just talked with Sitting Bull. It is my understanding that Sitting Bull did not know if the Army was there to talk or make war (although after the NA scouts from Custer killed a couple of NA kids in the river, before Reno’s attack, that was no longer an option!).
But oh no! Did Custer do any of these things?
What he did was take 4 of his relatives with him into a battle situation (let us also not forget the newspaper man that was with him to record Custer's glorious achievement!).
Supporting my statements in other threads on this forum that Custer was an egomaniac!
Unfortunately, in his haste for glory, he took about 250 good men with him!
There is no doubt that Custer was a courageous individual (as shown by his Civil War record).
However, it seems that his only strategy was to attack.
It is my opinion that he had many strategies available to him that he could have used on June 25th, 1876 (some are stated above).
I am sure West Point must have taught him other battle scenarios than to just always attack.
Although he did graduate last in his class!
My opinion is that the battle at the Little Bighorn was lost not because of Reno, not because of Benteen, but because of the Commander.
That would be Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer!
Just my opinion!
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 4, 2024 17:41:06 GMT -6
mikegriffith1, my friend,
I can already foresee your response to my previous post. So let me just save myself some time!
Yes, we know that you served 21 years in the military (again, thank you for your service). We know that scholars over the last 20 years have written books about the Little Bighorn. We know that you have a vast education and consider yourself a scholar.
However, one thing that you and the scholars are overlooking is human nature!
Human nature takes precedence over military rank.
What would you do? Your commander states to attack and he will support you. Your commander doesn’t support you as he stated and you lose 1/3 of your men!
Now, your commander sends you a note that states he needs your support.
What would you do?
Rush to your commander’s aid and perhaps lose more of your troops?
Or would you drag your heels?
All your so-called scholars (and yourself) are overlooking human nature!
No wonder there was collusion and lies at the RCOI, everyone knew what happened but was trying to cover their ass!
Hell, save your career at all costs! Custer was responsible for the disaster at the Little Bighorn. But the reputation of the 7th must be saved and honored! So, lie, state that you were engaged in a battle with the NA’s and could not go to Custer’s aid.
I am sure (that you being in the military for 21 years) have seen this same type of cover your ass scenario!
Remember that one guy stated at the RCOI something like – if our officers were braver, we would have all been killed!
Also, all your so-called scholars are looking at the battle after Custer made his decision to attack in the way that he did.
As stated in my previous post, I am looking at Custer before he made his decision (and he could have made several different decisions on how to attack the village) to attack the village in the way that he did, or maybe he didn't need to attack the village at all and could have discussed the matter with Sitting Bull!
Any results of that one decision that Custer decided to make is his responsibility!
Bottom line- the defeat at the Little Bighorn rests with only one person (no matter what his widow tried to defend for over 50 years).
That person is the Commander. Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer is solely responsible for the result of his decisions and defeat at the Little Bighorn!
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 5, 2024 6:38:11 GMT -6
Ah - you believe Benteen now? Harper said that - cause Benteen did: Q. Describe that guidon you spoke of and how far it could be seen. A. It could not be seen as far as the horses. It might attract attention by its fluttering or by the point of brass on the end, though the horses would be more noticeable objects than the guidon.And I see we're back to silliness. Way back in the 1950s, Kuhlman noted that the horses would have been very noticeable from Custer's location. Harper did not say this just because Benteen did; he said it because it is a self-evident fact. Benteen's admission that the horses would have been more visible than the guideon only discredits his guideon-planting story. Benteen probably included the self-evident fact of the greater visibility of the horses because he feared that otherwise Lt. Lee would bring it up in a follow-up question. Do you really believe that anyone would have thought that the fluttering of a small flag and/or the shining of a small point of brass would have attracted anyone's attention from 50 football fields away? Do you really? Several dozen horses, yes, certainly would have been visible to Custer's command from that distance. But a small fluttering flag and/or a small shiny point of brass? Really? You have again missed, or avoided, Harper's point that Benteen was not where he claimed he was in his RCOI testimony, i.e., that he was not on the highest elevation in the area he described. And I see you're still splitting hairs over the term Weir Point. Since you quoted Harper earlier, I have to wonder why you've ignored Harper's information about what was seen and heard from the Weir locale. Also, I would point out that I referred to what Hare and others saw and heard from the Weir area, not just Hare. Furthermore, not only did Benteen say he saw no signs of fighting, he also said he heard no indications of fighting while at the Weir locale. I see you quote Lt. Wallace, but surely you know that Wallace consistently lied to try to support Reno and Benteen's tales, as many historians and scholars have observed. Wallace, for example, was the only one who expressly supported Reno and Benteen's lie that they heard no heavy firing to the north from Reno Hill. Wallace also falsely claimed that he overheard the orders given to Reno. You do the same thing that Reno-Benteen apologists have always done: you take Reno, Benteen, and Wallace's word whenever necessary, and you brush aside the fact that they made numerous demonstrably false statements. No jury in its right mind would believe witnesses who were caught telling a number of egregious falsehoods, but your entire case foundationally relies on Reno, Benteen, and Wallace's RCOI testimony. Finally, it bears repeating yet again that not a single published historian or Custer scholar in the last 20 years has supported your version of the battle. Every single one of them has exonerated Custer, has faulted Reno and Benteen for failing to obey Custer's orders, and has pointed out that Reno and Benteen made many false statements at the RCOI. I think it is especially important that newcomers be made aware of this fact.
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