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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 23:27:11 GMT -6
It always comes down to logistics Beth, in this instance field sanitation. We have no idea how many of the defenders were weakened by various illnesses that proper field sanitation could have prevented, along with bad quality and low quantity rations. The only thing we know for sure was that in the main the rations of the garrison were rustled cattle, and stolen corn. Travis tells us that in his very first letter at the start of the siege, the one addressed to the People of Texas and All Americans in the World. I read it, one heck of a rally cry. It really defines how we see ourselves doesn't it. Too many times 'others' have failed to understand that in the US we are kind of like a huge family. We bicker all the time but if someone else comes up and beats up a cousin, He's going to haave to face all of us. Or perhaps we are more like grizzly bears. We love living in our isolated peace but try to take it away from us and we get really ugly.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 23:39:28 GMT -6
When you consider it was written in a broken down old mission, a million miles from nowhere, and had an impact that rates it as one of the probably ten best pieces of written material in our history.
I once used it as a basis of a Sunday School Class centered on what makes men do what they do, what motivates them. I got some very interesting responses from a room full of teenagers, most of whom had never heard of it. One of those kids, now in uniform carries a copy of it in his wallet.
"I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country"
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Post by mac on Mar 13, 2015 5:28:49 GMT -6
What are the factors that make the attack at the southern end so successful? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 13, 2015 8:36:02 GMT -6
Well seeing as though this is my one real area of expertise, and I played a small part, very small, in reintroducing the concept in the U S Army, I would love to say that they were all from the 10th Mountain Division who are the finest light Infantry in the world. Sadly that is not the case Mac.
The southwest corner was the place where the garrisons largest piece of artillery was mounted, facing the town. There is debate as to if that piece was operational during the final assault. Evidently it was dismounted by counterbattery sometime during the siege, but most agree it was remounted. Regardless the 18 pounder battery position was occupied.
I mentioned very early in this thread that a stone and adobe building was left standing outside the walls on that very corner. There was also a depression in the ground that led from the Alameda (present day Commerce Street) along the western side of Plaza Valero. Valero is the open ground between the south barracks wall to Commerce Street, about a city block in length. Both side of Plaza Valero were once occupied by the jacales that were burned down in the opening days of the siege to clear fields of fire. Only the stone building remained along with the burnt remnants of the jacales. Anyway this depression ran along the back (west) side of one row, much like a back alley in an urban street setting today.
Colonel Morales organized the three light companies, one each from the Matamoros, Jimenez, and San Luis battalions and led them along this back alley covered by darkness, the depression, and that stone building. He waited until the northern assault started. The presumably attracted the attention of the defenders, who should have been watching their sectors. Being as these defenders had half their bodies exposed it probably was not hard to determine that their attention was directed elsewhere. Remember Morales was very close to the southwest corner, within maybe ten or fifteen meters. When he felt the time was right, he sent his hundred or so men up and over the wall, and also went after the lunette along the west wall where Ruiz says Crockett was found.
It was a typical LI break and enter, stealthy, quick, decisive. Light Infantry makes up for its lightness, by taking advantage of what terrain and the enemy offer up. Morales won that battle for Santa Anna.
PS: Each line battalion had a light company, who were the battalions designated skirmishers. About the closest we come today are our scout platoons in each battalion, who usually have the best that battalion has as members.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 13, 2015 8:42:20 GMT -6
When I hear you all discuss the right and wrongs of your country you should all take a look at how we blundered through our history over here, it was around 2000 years ago since the Romans left and for the next 1700 years we did nothing but fight not only each other but countless invaders too, the amount of blood spilt on this small island was enormous, the last battle fought here was in 1746 so we have got it out of our system (I hope), you guys were still taking baby steps in 1776, so please don’t worry so much about your great nation, and give it another 1500 years to sort out any problems.
Chuck was the Mexican army organised alongside French lines? They had a light company in each battalion known as Voltigeurs, each French Regiment of the line would contain 12 companies; 1 x Voltigeur company 1 x Grenadier company 10 x Line companies
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 13, 2015 9:08:57 GMT -6
Similar Ian, but not as many companies. They just didn't have the manpower.
The light companies were called cazadores (hunters)
The heavy companies were called grenaderos.
The six line companies were called fusileros.
Both the perminente (regular army) and the activo (similar to our National Guard) were organized identically
I find no instance where any Mexican Infantry battalion exceeded 460, and that is questionable. Most were far below that figure.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 13, 2015 9:29:46 GMT -6
Chuck a standard French line battalion circa 1815 had;
1 x Voltigeur Company 1 x Grenadier Company 4 x Fusilier Companies 520 all ranks
So a Mexican battalion would be around 80 men less and that’s if it was at full strength of course.
If those Mexican soldiers were as tough as their boxers then they would be hard to beat.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 13, 2015 9:37:52 GMT -6
Ian: Like LBH it does not matter a fig what your TO&E says that your required strength is. The only thing that matters is how many bayonets you can field at any given moment. Most of the assault battalions were 300 or less.
Keep in mind Morales with three light companies could only field one hundred or perhaps slightly less.
We tend to think of Mexican soldiers to be the mirror image of Sergeant Garcia in the old Disney Zorro series. That would be a very big mistake.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 13:13:42 GMT -6
My apologies, didn't mean to jump into the davy, texas or alamo discussion. I will leave you to get back to discussing the important matters of the "crapper" location at the alamo...... You can belittle the importance of the location of the privy but if you are going to be staying in a place a long time, it's location --away from polluting your drinking water--is important. The same with the cattle pens in relationship to the water. You get all sort of nasties from a dirty water supply, tyhoid, typhus, cholera... I don't think that they had make the connection between water and sewage at that point in history but really common sense says you put your privy downstream from your water source, not upstream. dirty water and raw sewage was the least of davy's worries.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 13, 2015 13:19:00 GMT -6
That's it folks. I will not tolerate this Jackass on this thread. A new thread will be established on a multi address PM. Unfortunately all cannot read it if they care to, but you can thank that idiot for that. Post anything further on the PM thread that I will immediately establish.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 18, 2015 9:36:56 GMT -6
Chuck here is that map you ask for, I placed it here because the PM board has no attachment button, I cannot enlarge it neither, I think this is a job for international rescue, that's you Chris can you enlarge it and place it on the Alamo PM site? I have changed the direction to your co-ordinates Chuck, is that the direction you wanted? Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 18, 2015 9:53:14 GMT -6
That is the drawing Ian, but the north wall, the one with the breech marked should be facing left to best illustrate the attack plan. Maybe Chris can figure something out to get in posted on the PM site. Then after the "plan" discussion concludes post it again and we can mark up what actually transpired based on that plan.
This thread is still closed. Anyone that has interest in the subject PM me to get access. The original rules stated in this threads initial post apply. Nonsense will not be tolerated. Serious discussion only. Violations will be summarily deleted without warning
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 18, 2015 10:03:12 GMT -6
Here we are; While I have got you, remember when I mentioned about North Korea the other day? well I have took your advice and decided not to use them, they will be replaced by the Dutch East Indies Forces (KNIL). That will bring it back up to 24. Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 18, 2015 10:18:48 GMT -6
Perfect. I wish there was a little more in the way of a border for the drawing, but you have to go with what you have available
There was nothing that the NK's used that would not be included in that of other nations. That goes for the CCF as well.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 18, 2015 10:56:38 GMT -6
Chuck there are many maps out there, here is another; Ian.
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