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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 16:58:34 GMT -6
This thread is initiated to discuss the siege of the Alamo, and all other issues involving the Texas Revolution 1835-36, to include the siege itself, the physical structure of the mission compound, the battles leading up to it, and the aftermath of the siege the seminal battle of San Jacinto (extra points for the English translation of San Jacinto) and the implications these events had on both the history of Texas and that of the United States.
If you are not serious about the subject, don't post. I am, and I get more that a little riled when I encounter idiots.
If you think Custer is myth and mystery, the Alamo will be just your cup of tea.
I don't want to hear any politically correct bull crap, we stole the place fair and square and it's a dead issue.
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Post by Beth on Mar 6, 2015 17:02:10 GMT -6
Thanks QC. I look forward to the discussion.
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2015 17:12:14 GMT -6
QC The first question I have regards the fate of David Crockett. Was he killed in battle or captured and executed? What if any validity does the alledged de la Pena diary have? That ought to be a juicy piece to gnaw on for a while. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 17:44:55 GMT -6
This is in post 1960, the most often asked question Dave. I don't know the answer, but I think I know the answer, and while I have no use for the Daughters of the Republic of Texas my opinion is right up their street.
de la Pena was in jail as an enemy of Santa Anna, a political prisoner if you will. Any discredit he could bring on Santa Anna served him well. He was at the siege of the Alamo and took part in the assault although his was a secondary role. In his diary, which was nothing of the kind, and many think an outright forgery, he states that David Crockett was a "naturalist", whatever the hell that is, an among several prisoners captured and executed immediately following the fall of the place.
1) de la Pena would not know David Crockett if he fell over him.
2) Mrs. Dickensen, herself a mid-teen illiterate, and of nearly no help in determining what happened said she saw his body immediately after the place was taken, presumably when she was being evacuated, and knew him by his peculiar cap. What peculiar cap, ask I? He was known to wear that furry rag back in the woods of Tennessee, but there is no contemporary account of him wearing it or even buckskins in Tejas. Crockett was a bit of a dandy, and those were trail clothes. So that causes my antenna to rise.
3) Francisco Ruiz, who knew Crockett by sight, and as the Alcalde (Mayor) of San Antonio de Bejar was put in charge of first showing Santa Anna the bodies of Travis and Bowie, the policing up ALL of the bodies, Texian and Mexican alike, and disposing of them. Ruiz says that he discovered Crockett's body in a small lunette (in Spanish fortin) outside the west wall facing the town. That lunette had no direct access from inside the walls. To get there you had to go out a gate, move around the walls, and enter over the entrenchment itself, so anyone there was a rat in a trap. As such Crockett died early, and did not participate in the breakout later that morning.
My answer then is that Crockett died and was found just where Ruiz says he found him, in the lunette. For info this position was located very near the present Alamo Plaza entrance to River Walk. If you ever visit, you will note there are one hell of a lot of stairs leading down to RW, indicating that portion of the west wall was on a small hill that led down to the river. The land levels off as you proceed north to Houston Street.
So what implication does the de la Pena Diary have. In my opinion it accurately states that some prisoners were executed, which is also verified by other sources, but other than that it is a work worthy of Philbrick or Ambrose.
Keep in mind here I am not a Texian, I am a Virginian, I have no emotional dog in this fight. It is a subject I have great interest in, That's all, so I don't get gushy, wrap myself in the Lone Star and get the vapors over Rudi's Bar B Q, while I am two stepping to Bob Wills' twin fiddles.
I am damned glad you said David. It shows some subject matter knowledge, for he hated to be called Davy.
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Post by Beth on Mar 6, 2015 18:29:50 GMT -6
You make a good point about de le Pena. You have to have some idea about hows, whys and whens that someone wrote under.
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2015 18:31:17 GMT -6
The manner of Crockett's death is immaterial the man gave his life for a cause he held as important enough to fight and die for. I think the Baby Boomer crowd have been the driving force behind having Crockett die in battle. Disney's portrayal of him was too powerful for a surrender death. Had there been any question prior to de la Pena's diary of how Crockett or any of the defenders died? Or was de la Pena's work the first to question if he had been a captive? Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 18:58:42 GMT -6
Dave my interest in the Alamo started in about 1950 when I was seven years old. Back in those days every kid collected bubble gum cards and I was no exception. One series I collected were western cards, depicting events from the westward expansion period and one of them was the Alamo. Don't have the card anymore, but I recall the forefront of the picture having this scruffy dude firing a flintlock pistol through an opening in the wall, with several in the background in assorted heroic poses. Somewhere between then and Disney I picked up bits and pieces on it. After Disney my parents bought me the obligatory Marx Alamo play set (wish I had it now, an original is worth a small fortune). Along about 1963 I decided to drive to Tejas and visit. I was lucky enough to hook up with a woman at the Alamo library who I believe was named McDowell. She was an Army nurse in WWII and also filled me in on the 36th "Texas" Division at the Rapido River, as she was present in a supporting role for that Mark Clark screw up, one of many for him.
Anyway I was hooked, and I think it was either that trip or the one the following year where I picked up a copy of the so called diary, in a little bookstore in the Crockett Hotel, half a block from Valhalla.. So that was in 63 or 64.
There had also been an article in one of those men's magazines in the mid 1950's,it was Saga or Argosy, that pimped the Crockett executed theory. It was during the Disney Crockett mania, but I don't recall if it used the de la Pena drivel as source material. There was a similar article in one of those same rags about Custer being wounded at Ford B or thereabouts at near the same time.
So the short answer is I am not sure. All theorist that subscribe to the theory seem to all point to the diary. Personally for me it has as much weight as Thompson, some truth, but a lot of fabrication. It is simply a matter of trust and trustworthiness, in light of his known agenda.
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2015 19:42:28 GMT -6
QC I had the obligatory coonskin cap, record and other items when I was about 5 or 6. In 1960 my father was transferred to the ROTC unit at Ole Miss so we drove from Chula Vista, CA. We stopped in San Antonio and visited the Alamo. I was awed and at the age of 11 taken with whole history and pageant of the Texas Shrine. I vividly remember an exhibit they had on my 1960 visit about the Mier Expedition that had some of the white and black beans used to decide life or death. As an 11 year old I asked my father why the older guys didn't swap places with the young guys. He told me that was "damn stupid question." At 65 I understand and amazed he did swat me good. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 20:08:35 GMT -6
Interesting enough the Alamo you saw, the portion that still exists was the model for the Disney Alamo. They, the people working for Disney, knew it was wrong, but decided to do it anyway because they did not want to "confuse", whatever that means in this regard. That caused me a lot of juvenile heartburn in those days.
Since you were there a lot has been upgraded. In 1960 the long barracks were two parallel walls filled between with weeds. Today it is a first rate interpretive museum. Still only one story, not two like during the siege, but very nicely done.
I related this to Beth, but my granddaughter tells me that the garden/park behind the chapel. the scene of the most violent confrontations of a violent morning is the preferred place for prom and wedding pictures by the belles of SA
Yes it was a damned stupid question whippersnapper.
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Post by Beth on Mar 6, 2015 21:25:38 GMT -6
Interesting enough the Alamo you saw, the portion that still exists was the model for the Disney Alamo. They, the people working for Disney, knew it was wrong, but decided to do it anyway because they did not want to "confuse", whatever that means in this regard. That caused me a lot of juvenile heartburn in those days. Since you were there a lot has been upgrade. In 1960 the long barracks were two parallel walls filled between with weeds. Today it is a first rate interpretive museum. Still only one story, not two like during the siege, but very nicely done. I related this to Beth, but my granddaughter tells me that the garden/park behind the chapel. the scene of the most violent confrontations of a violent morning is the preferred place for prom and wedding pictures by the belles of SA Yes it was a damned stupid question whippersnapper. I suppose wedding and prom pictures there is a way to scream I am Texan. You might find this of interest. Goliad as a wedding site
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 21:28:28 GMT -6
Recommended further reading
The Alamo Reader by Hansen - Every document you will ever see referred to in other Alamo books under one cover. Available at the Alamo Gift Shop. Very expensive, but if you intend to pursue the subject an essential. Other with mild interest may wish to get it at their local library or through interlibrary loan.
Donovan's Alamo tome, whose name consistently escapes me, and I don't want to go to the basement for there is more laundry to fold. Donovan does a much better job with this one that he did with his Custer book. Donovan is Donovan though. His one contribution is to give the whole story of the Texas Rev, not just the Alamo, so there is contextual value to this book
The Blood of Noble Men by Huffines and Zaboly. First rate, giving you only what participant and witnesses said and placing it in day by day context. Zaboly does wonderful work with his illustrations which include the same hand drawn pictomap for each day but marked with the days events and locations. His Alamo mission compound drawing is well annotated, and it is one of the few you will see viewing the compound from an eastern perspective.
Nelson wrote a book again who name does not come to mind that is another essential for those interested in the compound itself and how the city has encompassed it. Very good, Highly recommended, and fairly inexpensive.
Then there is Walter Lord, who for my money wrote the most readable and enjoyable book on the subject. It is 55 years old and still stands up well. That is the place to start
There are many, many others and most are available at the Alamo Gift shop which sells on line. You will not find the more heretical and revisionist tomes there, but they are trash anyway. Avoid them like you would avoid Philbrick or venereal disease.
I forgot to mention to Dave. Another thing that sparked my interest in those early days was the Landmark (a book series for kids) Book "Remember the Alamo. Still have it, and believe it or not it stands up fairly well with the story.
Pay close attention to what remains of the Almonte diary. It is included in Hansen. Best source material on that particular area in my way of thinking.
Never put Santa Anna down as a piece of crap general officer. He was very good, despite his other failing. He planned and executed that thing like a symphony. In fact he did everything right in that campaign except dally with Miss Morgan.
No extra credit for you folks today San Jacinto, was actually named the Plains of Saint Hyacinth of Cappadocia an early Christian martyr of the second century. Be ready, tomorrow will be much harder.
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Post by Beth on Mar 6, 2015 21:40:30 GMT -6
Donavan's book is "The Blood of Heroes" You can get the Alamo Reader as an e-book here I have not bought yet --just downloaded the sample. I can say for from the sample it's photocopied pages from a book. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 21:44:10 GMT -6
I will let you know how good the Alamo garden is Beth when I take you to the senior prom.
Like San Jose it is still an active parish in the Catholic Church. I would think given the history it would be sought after.
My daughter got married at Truro Episcopal Church in Fairfax, Virginia which in and of itself is nor remarkable. What is though is the parish house of that church is the very building where John S. Mosby snatched a Union general from his bed and carried him off in his pajamas
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2015 22:56:29 GMT -6
QC Alamo reading materials I have found so far this evening others are some where
Aline in the San Randy Robertsand James Olsom
Texian Iliad Stephen Hardin Exploring the Alamo Legends Wallace Chariton
The Alamo John Myers Myers
Blood of Noble Men The Alamo Alan C Huffines
I will have to give of Fred's for the next few days. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2015 23:23:30 GMT -6
Texian Iliad is good. The Alamo, by Myers Meyers is dated, and inaccurate, but was one of my first reads for there was little else available until Lord. I have already commented on Blood of Noble Men and you should have that and Hansen by your side as you read any of the others. Can't say I can comment on the others.
Keep in mind though the Alamo has just as many or perhaps more agenda driven books than LBH ever though about having.
Not getting into racial issues, but that to is very much present in the last 30 years. Those idiot forget that there were twenty or more Hispanics defenders, several of which have never been identified.. It was not a war of race, white against Brown. It was a war that pitted Federalism against a Centrist form of governance. That was the issue. The mythical, and it is a myth 1824 flag spoke of a return to the constitutional principles of 1824, that went out the window when Mr. Chewing Gum took control.
Huffines once commanded 1-141st Infantry, one company of which traces back to the Alamo, and their motto is "Remember The Alamo" I have exchanged with him and Zaboly many times on another board. Bright guys.
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