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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 18:07:03 GMT -6
Will, face to face, voice to voice, eye to eye, would be great. I would think we agree on more than we disagree. God bless, if it never happens it is my loss.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 19:01:17 GMT -6
At the end of the day, many decent men fought for a bad cause. Yet, looking at the many conflicts I participated in, I do not know what history will judge my own effort. Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo, we made murky efforts, did we do any good? And in Iraq, I think the regime we installed is pretty nasty, and has already failed. But fighting for slavery? I think that is not a grey, a clear cut good and evil. But let's remember the USA has a murky past. When did USA embrace western values of human rights? 1776, 1783, 1863, 1964? One day this country may embrace democratic values, but certainly not in my lifetime, USA is not a democracy, it is a federal republic. Basically a tyranny of a one party state since 1876. So there are issues yet to be resolved. I hope one day the myth of American values actually becomes closer to a government and society that reflects our propaganda. People just need to be reminded now and then. BTW speaking of who we are as a country, have you seen the Bill that is working it's way through Oklahoma house? It makes me so sad that people can be so blinded by hate that they are willing to deny a very large group of people a human right to prevent a small group from being made equal. Sorry, I haven't been able to sleep for a couple days and it makes me morose and rambling. Didn't someone curse this thread up above by pointing out it was focused on topic? Alamo question. first thanks Ian for the map. Where the water ditches built around and through the site the work of Travis or are they from earlier events? I know I should know... QC we have talked before about the privies. I am going to assume that had to be in the Convent Yard beyond the area labeled hospital? How close to the Alamo ditch is that area really at? And to show how cloudy my brain is at the moment which way did the water flow? It's these little details of history that gives it the human touch. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 19:05:22 GMT -6
Dicurran: If you read the complete thread you would note that mention of any defenders being executed was supposedly from Almonte, Santa Anna's Chief of Staff, as told to George Dolson and published in the Detroit Free Press on 7 September 1836. Ramon Caro, Santa Anna's secretary mentioned it in a letter that appeared in the Frankfort, Kentucky Commonwealth on 27 July 1836. There was another mention of the incident by Captain Fernando Urizza. All these mentions appear after San Jacinto, after the war was effectively over, and after Texas became independent. So your theory has no basis.
Please refrain from calling David Crockett Davy. Please use capital letters when referring to personages, the Alamo, Texas or Americans. This practice injures my sensibilities, which is a very nice way of saying it pisses me off.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 19:21:44 GMT -6
At the end of the day, many decent men fought for a bad cause. Yet, looking at the many conflicts I participated in, I do not know what history will judge my own effort. Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo, we made murky efforts, did we do any good? And in Iraq, I think the regime we installed is pretty nasty, and has already failed. But fighting for slavery? I think that is not a grey, a clear cut good and evil. But let's remember the USA has a murky past. When did USA embrace western values of human rights? 1776, 1783, 1863, 1964? One day this country may embrace democratic values, but certainly not in my lifetime, USA is not a democracy, it is a federal republic. Basically a tyranny of a one party state since 1876. So there are issues yet to be resolved. I hope one day the myth of American values actually becomes closer to a government and society that reflects our propaganda. You could say the same about the 7th. Decent men, for the most part, but a bad cause. Kosovo was a good cause. Rest are very debatable, especially Iraq. War under bogus pretenses that cost many lives and will continue to cost lives for the next hundred years. The only one capable of control was Sadam. Should have been left in control. Agree, America will never be a democracy. Too much power and corruption in the tight grip of so few.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 19:27:03 GMT -6
Beth: They are called Acequias, and there were several throughout the area, including one that ran through the Alamo Plaza on the western side. Another ran immediatly behind the chapel and the remnants are still there, although it is now a rather nice goldfish pond, lime stone now on both sides, but the position is correct. Part of this acequia formed two ponds behind the church and convent. They were used for irrigation and flowed from springs in the hills beyond (east and northeast) and most found their way into the big loop of the San Antonio River, around which is now built river walk. The one behind the chapel was called the La Villita Acequia. The one flowing through the plaza is generally referred to as the Main Alamo Acequia, although it seems to have a couple of other names as well. The served also as a water supply for the garrison. I have never been clear if a well started by the garrision was ever completed.
The crapper was in the convent yard. You have it located correctly. Every time I pass by that huge live oak tree that stands there now I think of the value of fertilization.
By ditch I think you must mean acequia. Fairly close, twenty yards or so. There were also trenches dug by the defenders outside the walls. They are often confused with the acequias. They are on the south, and west for sure. There were plans to build a huge semi-circle earth work in front of the north wall, but that never came about, being overcome by events. Hansen has a sketch included with one of the Jameson letters.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 19:29:03 GMT -6
I believe I said no idiots would be tolerated on this thread Scarface ---- Clear off or send him a PM. You will not steal or disrupt this thread like you have so many others.
No I can't make you leave this thread alone, but what I can do is initiate a multi-addressee PM for those folks who have expressed subject matter interest, and that would exclude you, and prevent your disruption. I had hoped to have a thread that would generate both member and guest interest. I hope it does, and if you have one shred of decency, you will leave it stand without your presence, so I will not be forced to go private and exclusde you by design.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 19:36:47 GMT -6
I believe I said no idiots would be tolerated on this thread Scarface ---- Clear off or send him a PM. You will not steal or disrupt this thread like you have so many others. My apologies, didn't mean to jump into the davy, texas or alamo discussion. I will leave you to get back to discussing the important matters of the "crapper" location at the alamo......
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Post by dave on Mar 12, 2015 19:51:29 GMT -6
Montrose
The US has had a murky past and committed many sins. Yet America has many accomplishments: fought to create a new nation, established a federal republic with a president instead of a monarch, had a war that pitted brother against brother that ended slavery in the US, fought in a War to End All Wars, defeated the Nazis and the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, integrated the US Military, integrated all public schools and universities, enacted the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act to present a few positive actions.
We still have a long way to go to make this country the one envisioned by the founding fathers, yet I do not know of one any better in the world. Edmund Burke once said “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” America is a dynamic nation that is continually evolving and growing. The melting pot is certainly stirring daily and we are the better for it.
I have read that it takes at least 50 years to judge a war and its results both positive and negative in an impartial manner.
Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 20:06:02 GMT -6
Beth: They are called Acequias, and there were several throughout the area, including one that ran through the Alamo Plaza on the western side. Another ran immediatly behind the chapel and the remnants are still there, although it is now a rather nice goldfish pond, lime stone now on both sides, but the position is correct. Part of this acequia formed two ponds behind the church and convent. They were used for irrigation and flowed from springs in the hills beyond (east and northeast) and most found their way into the big loop of the San Antonio River, around which is now built river walk. The one behind the chapel was called the La Villita Acequia. The one flowing through the plaza is generally referred to as the Main Alamo Acequia, although it seems to have a couple of other names as well. The served also as a water supply for the garrison. I have never been clear if a well started by the garrision was ever completed. The crapper was in the convent yard. You have it located correctly. Every time I pass by that huge live oak tree that stands there now I thing of the value of fertilization. By ditch I think you must mean acequia. Fairly close, twenty yards or so. There were also trenches dug by the defenders outside the walls. They are often confused with the acequias. They are on the south, and west for sure. There were plans to build a huge semi-circle earth work in front of the north wall, but that never came about, being overcome by events. Hansen has a sketch included with one of the Jameson letters. It really shows how vulnerable their water supply was if there was no source like a well actually on the grounds. Food you can make last by rationing but water is another thing. It seems that Santa Ana could have just diverted the water and waited them out without a shot being fired. He really wanted to make his point and used overkill to the extreme. The more I read about Santa Ana the more I have a begrudging admiration. I would never turn my back on the man, but he is a survivor, fighter and no fool. I found out that the Live Oak is called 'the Heritage Tree" I find its placement totally ironic and Texan. Did you know that kids have to say a Pledge to Texas in school right after the Pledge of Alliegence? My kids remain silent on it, since they both view Texas as a way-stop in their lives and not necessarily their final destination. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 20:30:46 GMT -6
We are a Republic, representative government based upon democratic principles, principle among them one person, one vote.. Pure democracy is totally unworkable.
As a nation we are young. In the short view progress seems never to come. In the long view as Dave states, we have made giant strides.
Beth: Water was a big deal. I mentioned three known offensive maneuvers and we have covered one and three. The second was a skirmish on the east, and northeast of the compound with the purpose of covering another party drawing water from that eastern acequia and those ponds.
Not all the acequias were full it seems. Santa Anna was a bear for recon, doing much of it himself with his principle staff officers including his engineer. Sometime during the first three days of March, I forget which off hand, on one of those recons he discovered what he termed a sunken road, behind which he positioned one of the assaulting battalions. He never annotated the exact location in any of his reports to my knowledge. Best guess though is that the attack position was just east of where the firehouse is on Houston Street, and the "sunken" road, most probably a dried up acequia which is now Houston Street, although it could be a little further north than that.
Yes I was aware of the Pledge to Texas, and it is disturbing to me. There is only one primary loyalty and that to the United States.
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Post by dave on Mar 12, 2015 21:17:18 GMT -6
QC I know the capture of the Alamo and the defeat and execution of the Goliad garrison slowed Santa Anna down enabling Houston to amass his forces. My question is did the casualties Santa Anna's army received at the battle at the Alamo impair his ability to wage effective against Houston. I have read in various sources that he lost from 300 to over 600 which would a lost rate of 30% comparable to unit losses of both Federal and Union in the War. These high numbers must have had a dilatory effect on the Mexican troops? Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 22:13:20 GMT -6
I believe I said no idiots would be tolerated on this thread Scarface ---- Clear off or send him a PM. You will not steal or disrupt this thread like you have so many others. My apologies, didn't mean to jump into the davy, texas or alamo discussion. I will leave you to get back to discussing the important matters of the "crapper" location at the alamo...... You can belittle the importance of the location of the privy but if you are going to be staying in a place a long time, it's location --away from polluting your drinking water--is important. The same with the cattle pens in relationship to the water. You get all sort of nasties from a dirty water supply, tyhoid, typhus, cholera... I don't think that they had make the connection between water and sewage at that point in history but really common sense says you put your privy downstream from your water source, not upstream.
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 22:35:01 GMT -6
We are a Republic, representative government based upon democratic principles, principle among them one person, one vote.. Pure democracy is totally unworkable. As a nation we are young. In the short view progress seems never to come. In the long view as Dave states, we have made giant strides. Beth: Water was a big deal. I mentioned three known offensive maneuvers and we have covered one and three. The second was a skirmish on the east, and northeast of the compound with the purpose of covering another party drawing water from that eastern acequia and those ponds. Not all the acequias were full it seems. Santa Anna was a bear for recon, doing much of it himself with his principle staff officers including his engineer. Sometime during the first three days of March, I forget which off hand, on one of those recons he discovered what he termed a sunken road, behind which he positioned one of the assaulting battalions. He never annotated the exact location in any of his reports to my knowledge. Best guess though is that the attack position was just east of where the firehouse is on Houston Street, and the "sunken" road, most probably a dried up acequia which is now Houston Street, although it could be a little further north than that. Yes I was aware of the Pledge to Texas, and it is disturbing to me. There is only one primary loyalty and that to the United States. Thank you for pointing out that a true democracy on the size of the US is totally unworkable. The places you see it totally working at least a while ago was during township meetings. I am going to have to pledge my ignorance on if all states and commonwealths have county/parishes divided into townships. We (the USA) are a very young country, just a gnat eyelash long when you look at the total history of the planet. It is way to early to tell if we are an experment that worked or failed. Back to Santa Ana. I think I called the acequias ditches because I am unsure of when they were dug and if they were temporary. I guess that the difference between an acequias and canal is probably who built them. When we were back home in Iowa in November I found my mother had worked herself into a regular tizzy, (she's 85, has Alzheimers and watches way to much Fox News). She worries that my family are going to be stuck when all those people wanting to declare Texas a republic again overthrow the government. Sam and i tried and tried to convince her it wasn't going to happen but I don't think she really understands. If Sam had told her about the Texas pledge I think Mom would have tried to hide our bus tickets home.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 22:41:31 GMT -6
Dave: I have heard numbers as high a two thousand Mexican loses, usually from Texans, who have had all too many long necked Lone Stars.
Santa Anna probably had on the order of 60 KIA plus or minus, and somewhere between 150 and 200 WIA or injured. Many of these were as a result of friendly fire and the Toulca Battalion was especially hard hit. We must however go back a bit to the beginning to understand the impact.
Santa Anna arrived on the 23rd with a little over a thousand men, in what is referred to as the vanguard force. His main body lead units were six to eight days behind him. I think the exact number of them that participated is a little cloudy, and not all of the main body arrived. We have the battalions by name. Each of those battalions were fairly small. They were bigger than the LBH battalions but not all that much.
The vanguard force was capable of doing nothing more than containing the Alamo, and they threw a fairly loose ring around the place. When the main body started showing up Santa Anna began to task organize for the battle. One of the things he did was form a composite battalion of all the line battalions light companies. This was the battalion that assaulted, broke and entered over the southwest corner of the plaza.
He further weakened his assault battalions by removing all of the recruits, guys who had been handed a rifle and told to go to the back of the column or be shot. Those kinds of recruits. As a matter of fact during the assault some of these left behind recruits stole some of Almonte's personal gear, and he so mentions in his diary.
So what you have is an assaulting force of much reduced battalions, totally about 14 to 15 hundred. This was about seven and a half to one, and more than sufficient for assured success in an assault on a built up area.
So when you start figuring ratios on those figures the casualty rate is about 18 percent. That's bad, and no Texian need feel cheated, but when you consider those 18 percent was from his very best, that he could only replace with scabs it had to have a very real effect on what would follow. It had enough of an effect for him to delay his departure after Houston for some good time - ten days to two weeks.
We have some evidence that the Alamo had shaken the Mexican Army. Don't know to what extent of if it actually happened.
It should have been a cake walk. It was a very good plan. Two battalions badly fumbled the execution initially up on the north wall, and northwest corner. They sorted themselves out but with great and unneeded casualties, and did their job. Most of the fault lies in the fact it was pitch dark, and if your not trained to operate at night you can expect that sort of stuff. The southwest entry went like clockwork, up, over, and in within a very few minutes.
Never let it be said that the Mexican Army at the Alamo were the pushovers of San Jacinto. They were trail hard and tough fighters who generally knew their business.
What really slowed Santa Anna down was his need for speed. He crossed that desert with a small force to get there before he was expected, and hoped to take San Antonio by surprise. He damned near did reaching the Medina on 22 February only to find high water. He had no intention of conducting a siege, but once the Texians withdrew to the Alamo, he had no other option therefore his advance halted, giving Houston time. Goliad was for the Mexicans another fiasco of not enough to swim, and too many to drown
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 22:59:44 GMT -6
It always comes down to logistics Beth, in this instance field sanitation. We have no idea how many of the defenders were weakened by various illnesses that proper field sanitation could have prevented, along with bad quality and low quantity rations. The only thing we know for sure was that in the main the rations of the garrison were rustled cattle, and stolen corn. Travis tells us that in his very first letter at the start of the siege, the one addressed to the People of Texas and All Americans in the World.
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