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Post by dave on Mar 11, 2015 20:00:42 GMT -6
QC Did the thickness of the walls around the compound cause problems for the defenders? I read one time they had to lean out so far to fire on the Mexicans because the walls were around 2' thick. It was the North wall if I remember correctly were Travis was defending when he fell. Regards Dave
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Post by mac on Mar 11, 2015 20:22:35 GMT -6
I wonder if the defenders had been more vigilant and had recognised that the Mexicans were massing for an attack there would be the opportunity to hit them with artillary and create enough damage to blunt the assault? Cheers
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Post by mac on Mar 11, 2015 20:24:29 GMT -6
Dave I think there has been evidence that the wall construction made life easier for the Mexicans. Probably part of QC's "could have prepared better". Cheers
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Post by dave on Mar 11, 2015 20:35:13 GMT -6
Mac The Alamo defenders were prime examples of the inability of American volunteer soldiers to not be civilians. Facing professionals, amateuers generally fair poorly in all interactions. I know more about the behavior of volunteer soldiers during the 1861-1865 War and they were very difficult to take and follow any order from someone they considered their inferiors or equals. I would think that Travis had more than he could handle with his troops of the same ilk. I trust QC will correct me if I am wrong and steer me in the right direction. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 11, 2015 21:10:28 GMT -6
The walls varied in thickness, but I believe one and a half to two feet would be the average thickness for the plaza walls. The chapel had the thickest walls, and the long barracks is about two feet. Really impossible to tell about the others, for they are not there any longer.
The walls were not well prepared for defense. Also remember that some of the plaza walls were the back walls of houses, some with thatched roofs and some just planks covered with adobe. The wall provided little cover during the assault.
The wall thought to be weakest was the north plaza wall. You see in Ian's drawing a breech noted. I have seen that breech marked in several, at least three, places along its length. In actuality that breech was opened by Texian artillery during the fight in December 35. The wall was probably in poor condition and evidently the breech was easily achieved. The defenders built a horizontal log wall in front of the entire length on the north wall covering the breech along with everything else. Between the logs and the old wall they filled with dirt, what the combat engineers call a crib. It actually stood up quite well, but the thickness caused all kinds of problems firing over it. This is where Travis was killed. He leaned over to fire and got boinked in the forehead. The location of that is currently in the main lobby of the San Antonio Post Office on Houston Street. I think there is a marker there, but cannot verify that.
I think it is safe to say that the best way to lead 19th century volunteers is to find out where they are going and get in front of them. Travis had his hands full and did a remarkable job leading. He just could not command worth spit. In that day it was thought that every American male could ride a horse, shoot a gun, and was every bit the equal of Napoleon as a ground force commander. It is also widely known that this is bullshit.
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Post by montrose on Mar 12, 2015 6:08:04 GMT -6
I have been avoiding the Alamo discussion. The problem is that the invasion of Mexico was designed to sustain the supremacy of the slavery party in the USA. The slavers owned a majority in the senate, and control of the house from 1783-1865, and they were willing to commit any crime to sustain it.
As the men who died at the Alamo are the same as men who died for the CSA, as the same as the shower operators at Auschwitz. They are evil men who fought for an evil cause. As an American, I am happy they lost.
I try to avoid emotional arguments. But the problem I have as a Christian is that there is both good and evil in this world. And these folks were evil.
I mean no disrespect to anyone.
William
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 6:48:07 GMT -6
Will, do not dispute the theory.In reality though, how many who died at the Alamo, or for that matter died fighting for the Confederacy were actually slave holders? Most would never have ever been a position to ever own slaves. Most bought the "States Rights" theory. That theory, while flawed to some degree at the time has become a real issue over the last hundred years. The federal government is now far overreaching the powers invested in them by our founding fathers.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 8:44:45 GMT -6
There is much validity in what Will has said. There is indeed a struggle between good and evil, and the issue of slavery is a continuing undertone throughout the Texas Revolution, and it particularly manifested itself in the debates of ten years later, when the Republic gained admission to the Union via annexation, which itself led to war with Mexico.
I tend to take the long view, the John Adams approach - Is it better to have a flawed Union than no union, no representative government, no ability to decide our own fate, regardless of what that fate may be.
Like Will I despise the Confederate cause, and as most of you know I consider myself a Virginian. At the same time I do not hate those who fought in Texas, or for the Confederacy. In fact I am not bashful is openly admiring some for both character and demonstrated ability. It is the cause which has as part of its root the evil of slavery, I despise.
I am also not so hot on shouting states rights from the top of my lungs. The Constitution is a living document. I accept that, in fact feel it could be no other way. While the First Amendment is not a suicide pact, neither is the Tenth Amendment reason for inaction or intransigence. Most of the states rights arguments today are based upon perceived overplaying the hand of the Interstate Commerce Clause. Let us resolve to let the Supreme Court do its job of interpretation of law. That is why it is there, regardless of our agreement or otherwise. In the meantime we must all do our job of being vigilant and voting. We do a very poor job of both, for people who are supposed to value our freedom.
The Union is not perfect. It was not in 1789. It was not in 1836. It did not become so in 1865, and it sure as hell is not now. The measure of our strength is a continuing willingness to take on the impossible task of seeking perfection.
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 9:41:06 GMT -6
Well said QC. Also the Civil War was about more than just state's rights or slavery, it was also an economic war sort of clash of two paths a country could chose coming to loggerheads, modern industrial techology where ideally anyone could become wealthy with a good idea and hard work vrs an agrarian society where wealth was measured in the land you could hold.
One of the things to remember is almost every person on this planet has an ancestor that was either a slave, peon, thrall, or serf to someone somewhere down the line, and the opposite is probably true too.
Slavery was an issue for the first part of our history as our nation and perhaps more shamefully, the mindset that allowed the justifications for slavery still make their insidious ways into our lives today.
History isn't always pretty, but it's always interesting.
Beth
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 12, 2015 10:15:48 GMT -6
Yes slavery still goes on today in different forms, and you are correct Beth that every nation has had its share one time or another and like racism it involves all colours and creeds.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 12, 2015 10:42:01 GMT -6
I was recently SHOCKED (no kidding - shocked)to learn that human trafficking is second only to narcotics trafficking in OUR country, and that the city that I live in is at the epicenter of his vile blight. Supposedly it is our geographic location. There is a presentation on this subject here, later this month which my wife and I will attend. From what I have already learned though, the average sex and age of those being trafficked are nine year old girls. Yes evil as Will points out exists, and it exists right under our noses.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 11:24:36 GMT -6
Ask AZ, how much goes on in in Phoenix and Tucson, incredible.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Mar 12, 2015 15:00:19 GMT -6
Montrose I agree a leading cause of the South leaving the Union was the election of Lincoln and the rise of the Republican party which foreshadowed the loss of political power. The Democratic party had split into 3 factions. The main cause of course was slavery. Slavery caused the so called State's Rights issue to arise. The South wanted the federal government to enforce the existing fugitive slave laws which Northern states ignored. I think US Grant expressed my feelings about the Confederates:
"What General Lee's feelings were I do not know. .... I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us ..." I do not agree that those who fought for the South were anything like the Nazis. I do not attempt to defend their cause but I am aware of their beliefs of the day and the fact that the Nat Turner rebellion was only 30 years distant. The majority of the Southerners did not own slaves but they all deeply believed in racial superiority. Many Union soldiers were not sympathetic to the plight of slaves either.
As a Christian I agree that there is good and evil in this world. The Confederate States Army revival of 1863 was a series of Christian revivals which are generally regarded as part of the Third Great Awakening in this country. Hate the sin love the sinner. They all were not evil men in my opinion.
I respect your thoughts and beliefs and take no offense at our differences. That right is what you and so many others who went to War and fought, sacrificed their bodies and many died for. And for that precious gift I thank God for everyday and night. Regards Dave
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Post by dtcurran on Mar 12, 2015 15:56:35 GMT -6
i do believe that the first mention of crockett surrender and murder may well have come from texans and americans. now i have no broof to back this up, but here goes the alamo has fallen their all dead, you need more help in both money and men, what do you do? nobody outside of texas has ever heard of travis, bowie was a land swindler and knife fighter, but crockett, he was ours you may have disagreeded with his politics but nobody should have killed poor davy, everybody knew and loved poor davy. we autta ride down there and teach them fellass some manners!!!
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Post by montrose on Mar 12, 2015 17:32:57 GMT -6
At the end of the day, many decent men fought for a bad cause.
Yet, looking at the many conflicts I participated in, I do not know what history will judge my own effort. Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo, we made murky efforts, did we do any good?
And in Iraq, I think the regime we installed is pretty nasty, and has already failed.
But fighting for slavery? I think that is not a grey, a clear cut good and evil.
But let's remember the USA has a murky past. When did USA embrace western values of human rights? 1776, 1783, 1863, 1964? One day this country may embrace democratic values, but certainly not in my lifetime, USA is not a democracy, it is a federal republic. Basically a tyranny of a one party state since 1876. So there are issues yet to be resolved.
I hope one day the myth of American values actually becomes closer to a government and society that reflects our propaganda.
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