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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 11:26:04 GMT -6
Your non contribution was in fact a big contribution. Thanks Fred
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 11:49:03 GMT -6
I have given my initial moves in Reply #8. I will now provide the rational
Reno is so far doing OK. I will hold in place. If things continue to go well for Reno I will reinforce success with Benteen upon arrival. He will join Reno in the valley. The packs will hold at Ford A and move only on my order.. Once Benteen joins Reno and if things continue to progress in a satisfactory manner, and there is clear evidence that the hostiles are conducting a holding action until their families can escape I will move to the vacinity of Weir and environs and add to the misery of those attempting to escape to the east OR blunt any attempt to use the bluff approach to reach the right flank of the Reno/Benteen combined battle group. This I think will add to the confusion among the hostiles and give the appearance that I am in great strength.
If things turn for the worse in the valley. I will not reinforce defeat. I will move to the valley via Ford A and assist in the withdrawl.
I hope to keep both options open as long as possible until I can get as clear a picture as possible of hostile intentions, knowing full well that once I move north there is no turning back.
Having gotten some idea of the village size from my vantage point at 3411, to me it is a given that those at the opposite end of the village will flee down to river toward the Big Horn or west into the mountains. Those that try to go east I can do something about. For me this is not an all or nothing battle. I am mentally prepared to go at them again for as long as it takes. I am mindful of the capabilities of the force at my disposal. I will not try and pretend even to myself that I am superior in strength. My only superiority lies in maintaining tight control of what I have.
I want to make it very clear that this is not the battle I would have chosen. It is the battle Custer and history set up for me. Therefore I will fight the battle I have, not the battle I want.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 12:25:24 GMT -6
Quincannon: Not a darn thing I can dispute or disagree with. I wish I would have added that when you get near the village the horses are going to be played out but I didn't. I think with fresh horses they could still have more chances to hit the Indians as you suggest.
I might also think (and I think you have stated as much) that you are probably not as ambitious (probably not the right word to use) as Custer was in 1876.
What I do like about your plan is that it keeps the Indians between Custer and Terry, with the only good escape route to the West, smack dab into the middle of the Crow nation. Enemies on three sides. Justin
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 12:25:34 GMT -6
Oh, you're welcome, and for once I agree with you, Rosebud. That way morons like you can tip-toe through your fantasyland without the fear of public guffaws. Before venturing into something like the LBH, however, you should really try learning something about it... your lack of brains wouldn't be so apparent.
Maybe then you could put together a beginning-to-end synopsis... I could use a good laugh. I find dullards like you rather boring; if you could somehow manage to bring your "contribution versus antagonism" ratio more in favor of the contribution side, you may actually be worth talking to. I suspect, however, others have tried... no success apparent.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 12:37:45 GMT -6
There is ample testimony, many accounts, and artifactual evidence confirming my belief, I was going to let this pass until I read your last arrogant post.
Show me artifactual evidence that shows the time that Custer is on 3411 corresponds to any bullshit time line you have. Make up anything you want.....smoke, nothing but smoke.
If I remember, you were an expert BEFORE Scott shoved source books into your hands and forced you to read them... You have a BIG case of little man syndrome.
You seem to be the one who is want to start a conflict, even when I agree with you .. That is sad.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 13:08:13 GMT -6
Justin: You forget that there is a gas station at Garryowen, which I have on good authority used to be an oat and water station. Do your worst young man. While I am feeding and watering I just may stop in the snack bar for a Coke and a Clark Bar. Popcorn too if it's hot, no butter or salt of course.
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 13:08:48 GMT -6
My, my, the little man continues to belch fumes. Get your facts straight, idiot. Number one, nowhere on these boards or any others have I ever claimed to be an expert. Your own insecurity has labeled me that, not I... nor will I ever.
Second, idiot, I have never seen, met, or spoken to Douglas Scott, so go fly your kite in some other backyard. And no one has ever "forced" me to read anything, you fool.
As far as artifactual evidence, go dig it up yourself. I have already done the work. You haven't the means or the intelligence to do so; all you can do is tear down the work of others. As for my "bullshit time line," again, prove me wrong. I defy you to do so. Otherwise, shut your mouth about it... you would never understand it; you could never contradict it; and you would never have the means-- intellectually or otherwise-- to criticize it. When it gets published, make sure you ignore it, otherwise you will discover just how big an ass you really are... if you could understand it. Besides, you'll save money and have the enjoyment of wallowing in your ignorance. And unlike all your bloviating claptrap, mine is supported by evidence, whimsical or not.
And I certainly don't need your kind of agreement. That's like an alley cat bringing you a dead rat for a gift.
Now play on... you're in over your head here.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 13:23:04 GMT -6
Fred: This is not necessary. Rosebud has not offended that I know of. As far as being in over his head, he has presented a plausable scenario, one that mirrors the battle as closely as possible. He has set an initial decision point. Let's see how this plays out. Personally I think he has done well, getting the drift of this type of exercise perhaps more rapidly than others.
Wild was the one who questioned you on the advance of the skirmish line, not Rosebud. You post only reinforced what Rosebud set out as a parameter in his scenario set up. What then is the beef?
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 13:24:44 GMT -6
My bad....It was Fox not Scott. Right?
Let it out you will feel better. These attacks have been used by you in the past by anyone who even slightly disagrees with you. Dig it up myself? That is a good one. Artifacts from Reno's skirmish line can neither confirm nor dispute the timing of the retreat of Reno or the time that Custer was on the Bluff.
Artifacts from Reno's skirmish line can ONLY confirm the location of the line nothing else. They sure as heck don't confirm anything about Custer on the hill. PROVE ME WRONG or move on.
Justin
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Post by montrose on Sept 11, 2012 15:27:25 GMT -6
Let us be careful here.
I agree from 3411 LTC Custer saw Reno dismount. This means that the culminating point of Reno's attack was nigh, and enemy response was growing.
Indians took advantage of a dry creek bed, I think it is called Otter Creek now. I haven't been in the valley for 10 years. I do not think Reno ever took this terrain feature.
My point is that the Indians were no longer fleeing, but were forming a defense line. This line was in such strength that Reno dismounted. I believe at this point in time, MAJ Reno was expecting the main body of the regiment to support him.
So even if a handful of Indians may still have been moving away from Reno, hundreds more were heading towards Reno.
In addition, several hundred mounted Indians were heading around Reno's open flank. Already this force was closer in time and space to Ford A than was Reno.
The indications of these movements would be clearly visible from 3411.
Kanipe and Martini were not there. Their impressions were based on hearsay, or rumor. So our best way to determine LTC Custer's estimate of the situation is not based on 2nd and 3rd hand reports, but on GACs subsequent actions.
GACs actions show a complete lack of concern or interest in Reno's fight. His actions show he expected Reno to hold out with no support for hours.
My problem is his view from 3411 should have told him the true situation, and he appears to have completely misjudged the evidence.
So for the rock drill, you believe the Indians are fleeing, and you are in pursuit. At what point in time and space do you get to reevaluate the situation?
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 15:48:57 GMT -6
Jag, After going over some of today's posts and checking who wrote what, it appears I insulted you regarding your comments on 3,411. Please accept my apologies; my post was not meant to offend you and my language was inadvertently harsh. Here is my reasoning for claiming Custer went to 3,411 and not Weir Peaks or Sharpshooters' Ridge. My position relies on the testimony and accounts of Varnum, DeRudio, Herendeen, Martini, and Curley. The RCOI testimony of the first four is pretty specific, at least to me, and when one begins the measuring with ruler and map, 3,411 is the only answer. DeRudio, himself, specifically ruled out Weir Peaks when he was asked the question by the Recorder. My own reasoning is that a commander in a rush-- or any other mode of travel for that matter-- would seek to get as good a view and as close a view of the valley as possible. I would. Martini even described the specific route Custer took. While some claim Custer went to Sharpshooters', that is also out of the question, for it is entirely too far away for DeRudio to make any identification, regardless of the sky and the weather conditions. It adds some 300 yards to the distance he claimed. The pictures I have posted on this post and the next will give you a good idea of what can be seen from atop SSR. I hope this clears things up somewhat, and again, if I offended you, I render my sincerest apologies. Best wishes, Fred. Attachments:
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 15:51:15 GMT -6
Here is the second picture. By the way, both of these pictures were given to me by Vern Smalley. They tell a lot about what Custer would have seen if he were atop SSR. Best wishes, Fred. Attachments:
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Post by wild on Sept 11, 2012 15:55:13 GMT -6
Hi Fred I really don't think Reno's skirmish line advanced. I think the only advance it performed was to clear the horse lines. A cavalry skirmish line is sorta a stationary formation. If an aggressive fighting advance was made by Reno it would have a mention in the RCOI. This advance would have been under incoming.You just don't walk a line of 90 men towards 500+ warriors.And you just cant advance and fire at the same time;these two actions need controlling. In a cursory read of the RCOI statements of 3 officers including Reno i find no mention of such a tactic.And Gray's timeline contains no such action. Best Wishes
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 16:00:14 GMT -6
Retreating soldiers will not see Custer on the Bluff. Only soldiers facing the village will be able to do this. Better chance they are still advancing. I have seen no indication of soldiers or anyone talking about Custer on the bluff as they retreated.
If I am not mistaken.....( I am sure someone will let me know if I am wrong) Everyone that talks about Custer on the bluffs will then talk about the fight in the valley. Can't recall anyone talking about fighting a while and THEN they notice Custer on the bluff.
So for the rock drill, you believe the Indians are fleeing, and you are in pursuit. At what point in time and space do you get to reevaluate the situation?
That is a great question. One I will answer in a few days, but this is to soon and not the right time. Might be in Rock Drill 6 if Custer lives that long.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 16:49:43 GMT -6
Jag,
After going over some of today's posts and checking who wrote what, it appears I insulted you regarding your comments on 3,411.
Please accept my apologies; my post was not meant to offend you and my language was inadvertently harsh. Fred
I thought I missed something so I looked back and found that Jag has never posted on Rock Drill III
HMMMM I wonder...... No...No comment, I will leave it alone.
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