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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 8:28:05 GMT -6
Blue situation. Reno Bn has been launched as advance guard for a regimental attack across Ford A. LTC Custer decided to change this plan, by having the main body shift to the left.
He assumed the village was between Ford A and Ford B. His move to right would put him behind the village when he reached Ford B. He had no possible way to know about Ford B, except total trust in his Crow guides.
He was gambling. There are arguments that he did not trust his Indian guides. He bet the farm on their advice. His actions are lunacy if their was no ford beyond the bluffs.
Okay, he gets to 3411 and sees his assumptions on Indian locations and actions are wrong. Village is not upstream of Ford B, instead the ford ois center of mass of the village.
Ohhhh, and he failed to tell Reno, Benteen and McDougall of his move to the right.
So at 3411, Custer waves his hat encouraging Reno. Reno is driving the Indians before him. Custer leaves the ridge and goes out of sight BEFORE there is any indication of Reno stopping and no longer putting pressure on the Indians.
Custer now knows the Village is larger than expected and Sends a message to Benteen after he leaves the ridge and there is no indication in that message that Reno is in trouble.
Clock is running.
Now what?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
As you see, I have changed only one thing about the rock drill 2. This will now resemble the LBH and the mindset at that point in time.
Play if you wish. I will sit back and watch. No comment from me. I would like to see what tactics you guys will use with this game.
Justin
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 8:44:47 GMT -6
Be glad to play. Rosebud you have changed the scenario enough to justify a whole new set of responses.
What did the message to Benteen say? If it's the same as the historical message, all decision making may be skewed, and the assumption may be made that the Blue force commander has already made his decxision, which negates the need for a rock drill in some respects.
In fact, it might be better to use the content of the message as the first decision point, and let the exercise flow from there.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 9:13:19 GMT -6
You have opened a can of worms here Justin, the problems that lurk after this point will rear the head so any commander faced with these options would be in trouble;
1/ you have only 209 men under your command and are facing a larger village then you thought. 2/ if the note to Benteen is worded the same as the original (Chuck has touched on this) would anyone come to support you. 3/ you will soon be facing some serious opposition from the village.
So all in all, you can either attack across Ford B in full strength, or keep to the high ground and hope that support comes soon, you can always do what was done by Custer and split you command and move north. I suppose if I thought that Reno was driving all before him and Benteen was making up ground to enter the fray, I would try and attack across Ford B, but it would have to be done in all haste to avoid being caught by any warriors that had stayed behind to get ready for the Reno fight, at the end of the day though the casualties would be high.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 9:15:54 GMT -6
Ian: I don't think anyone can move on this one until the content of the message is revealed, or we get to write our own.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 9:17:17 GMT -6
What did the message to Benteen say? If it's the same as the historical message, all decision making may be skewed
I guess you can say anything you want in the message. However giving any indication that Reno is in trouble would deviate from the real battle. Tweak it any way you see fit. After all, YOU are Custer and it is your message.... that will allow personalities to get involved... That is good if you ask me.
Justin
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 9:22:24 GMT -6
Ian: I don't think anyone can move on this one until the content of the message is revealed, or we get to write our own.
You guys didn't seem to have a problem with Rock drill 1 and 2 when there was no objective given. I think you can handle this OK.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 9:32:10 GMT -6
Fair enough.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 9:34:33 GMT -6
Thank you Justin, you have laid out the ground rules so we can proceed, I have to log off for today, I will see tomorrow what this thread coughs up, and maybe throw in my penny’s worth.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 9:51:29 GMT -6
MESSAGE TO BENTEEN: Benteen, Reno is presently developing the situation in the valley. Move to Ford A. Messenger will guide you. Upon arrival halt in place. You are the regimental reserve. Be prepared to support either Reno or myself on call. I am presently located on the bluff to your right. I have Reno under observation. If you are committed to Reno's support, I will follow you and be behind you at about a fifteen minute interval. Govern yourself accordingly.
MESSAGE TO THE PACKS: Move directly with all deliberate speed consistent with security to Ford A. Messenger will guide. Upon arrival, halt in place. Benteen will either be there or further forward in the valley. I am presently on the bluffs.
MESSAGE TO RENO: Benteen is about a half an hour to your rear. DO NOT become decisively engaged. Retain your freedom of maneuver. You will be supported. I am presently on the bluff to your right and have you under observation.
Definition : Decisive engagement means that you are so engaged that you have lost your freedom to maneuver
All three of the messages would be via officer or very senior NCO messenger, fully conversant with my intent, having personally briefed them and I have insured their complete understanding of that intent.
I would then go back to the vacinity of 3411, set up an OP on the bluffs which I would personally occupy, and have my five companies adopt a hasty defense one would expect when in an assembly area in an nearby area that would offer concealment, and await developments.
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Post by benteen on Sept 11, 2012 9:58:30 GMT -6
So at 3411, Custer waves his hat encouraging Reno. Reno is driving the Indians before him. Custer leaves the ridge and goes out of sight BEFORE there is any indication of Reno stopping and no longer putting pressure on the Indians.
As you see, I have changed only one thing about the rock drill 2. This will now resemble the LBH and the mindset at that point in time.
Justin Justin, The one thing you changed, to me is the most important, and would completly alter my train of thought on this excercise. From an article in Research and Review vol 24 by Capt Fred Wagner pg12 bottom paragraph, unless I am interpreting it wrong, he says that Custer from 3411 was viewing the Reno fight. Since Renos charge was almost over before it began, the only "Fight" he could be viewing was the skirmish line. Im not being picky Justin,but if I believe Reno is driving the warriors and they are running I am going to believe my plan is working. If I see Reno has been stopped cold, I am going to realize my plan has collapsed and make my decisions accordingly Do you know for sure which it is. Did he see Renos skirmish line from 3411 or not. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 10:17:08 GMT -6
Dan: Justin set the parameters. He says Reno is still driving the indians, so I think we must proceed from that point.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 10:27:37 GMT -6
Justin,
The one thing you changed, to me is the most important, and would completly alter my train of thought on this excercise.
From an article in Research and Review vol 24 by Capt Fred Wagner pg12 bottom paragraph, unless I am interpreting it wrong, he says that Custer from 3411 was viewing the Reno fight. Since Renos charge was almost over before it began, the only "Fight" he could be viewing was the skirmish line.
Im not being picky Justin,but if I believe Reno is driving the warriors and they are running I am going to believe my plan is working. If I see Reno has been stopped cold, I am going to realize my plan has collapsed and make my decisions accordingly
Do you know for sure which it is. Did he see Renos skirmish line from 3411 or not.
Be Well Dan
That is not for me to decide. It is for each and every person that studies the LBH. Fred is not a source, he has just made his own judgment.
What do the men in the valley say? They do not seem to be stopped when some of them see Custer on the ridge. What does the note to Benteen tell you? What did Kanipe say was going on? What did Martini report to Benteen? Martini is the big clue..... This message was defiantly sent AFTER Custer had left the location in question and there is absolutely no indication of Reno in trouble, In fact it is just the opposite......"Reno is driving the Indians, killing them right and left"....One version "The Indians are skedaddling".... Not one version ever gives a hint of Reno in trouble.
I don't know what Custer saw....Fred does not know what Custer saw. I can only make assumptions from what he did or did not do when he left the ridge..
We know one thing for damn sure....The note did not say
"Benteen Be Quick Big village Reno is in trouble and needs help"
Now I can only surmise that any officer on this or any other board would give that kind of information to Benteen if they thought Reno was in any kind of trouble.
And I highly doubt that he would be worried about the packs at that time if Reno was in trouble.
As you see.....It is only my opinion, but you might see how I come up with that opinion.
If I see evidence that would change that opinion, then I will adjust accordingly.
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 10:35:53 GMT -6
From an article in Research and Review vol 24 by Capt Fred Wagner pg12 bottom paragraph, unless I am interpreting it wrong, he says that Custer from 3411 was viewing the Reno fight. Since Renos charge was almost over before it began, the only "Fight" he could be viewing was the skirmish line. Dan, I am not getting involved in this thing except to clarify some issues. First of all, Custer viewed the valley from 3,411, and nowhere else. Anyone who says differently-- in my opinion-- has no clue how the military works or how a commander commands... unless, of course, he is an idiot, and I do not believe Custer falls into that category. Second... and this is very, very important... anyone who thinks the valley fight was done in 10 minutes does not understand this battle, this event, at all. I am taking no prisoners here... anyone disagreeing with that is also an idiot and I have no wish to discuss this thing with people like that. There is ample testimony, many accounts, and artifactual evidence confirming my belief, despite what Gerard and Herendeen may have said over the course of the years. Circumstances intervene; comments are taken out of context... whatever. A simply walk through of what we know occurred would take considerably more than 10 minutes. Having said that, it is my belief Custer sat atop 3,411 with Cooke and his brother Tom, and saw-- not the dismount, but-- the skirmish line beginning its advance. He also saw the line split and go in two different directions, Indians-- mostly afoot-- backing away, "retreating." That is what I believe he saw... and he stayed there, watching, for some eight minutes, before he headed toward Cedar Coulee. He liked what he saw, because even though Reno had not carried through with the charge, Reno was doing exactly what Custer wanted: he was tying down Indians, bringing more and more toward him, and he was "winning"; he was advancing and the Indians were withdrawing. That's it in a nutshell. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 11, 2012 11:05:34 GMT -6
he was advancing and the Indians were withdrawing. First time I'v heard that Reno's skirmish advanced.Nothing in the RCOI to suggest such an action. If he did not like what he saw from horse back it hardly improved on foot.
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2012 11:21:49 GMT -6
First time I'v heard that Reno's skirmish advanced.Nothing in the RCOI to suggest such an action. Wild, are you for real? Try reading the English language version; it makes for better comprehension. Right! Another example of a complete lack of knowledge and understanding and another reason not to contribute. Best wishes, Fred.
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