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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 3, 2012 19:34:05 GMT -6
Colonel Reno got across at a point that was not a recognisable ford. I believe that there were dozens of fordable points along the river. It was high Summer and that river took the scenic route;snacking I think is the term so no white water. Any photos I'v seen show no more than a foot or two of water, Where's AZ when you need him? Do you think that it was only by ford B that the Indians countered Custer? Wild the river is fordable in most places with some places having better ingress egress. The problems are the banks and the adjacent terrain. When we crossed at Reno's retreat it was belly deep and the substrate was not bad. My horse stuck his head under water to take a look I guess. we were not swimming. So the issue for Custer or troops--- is the river is approachable without being seen traveling at a slow speed down a slope? You can move down MTC rapidly. Coming off the bluffs from Ford A to B is problematic with steep narrow trails or a large open area across the river on the village side. For those that think Thompson's ford (wherever it is) was better than MTF I would like to know how long they think it would take to ride exposed down the bluffs and how close would closest cover fire position be on the bluffs. Seems to me my range finder had it at 500 yards from the bluffs to the timber in the Thompson area. Wild I don't think you can move a large body of troops down from the bluffs until the other side of Weir. AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 3, 2012 20:02:45 GMT -6
Or much of anything. Even solo you're wide open moving slow in full view to anyone with a rifle paying attention. It keeps being said and ignored the only way for Benteen or anyone to assist Reno on the west bank was to take Ford A. Reno's retreat trail is a good example, and while hellish for a horse going up it's dubious whether any could make it down without disaster when tired and, in any case, moving slow without cover.
I'd go further and say the first place where a speedy crossing could be made is MTC. This being true, and if the scouts had given a reasonably accurate diorama for consideration, I cannot imagine Custer planning to go further north with three companies in combat without giving battle. Still think, and more all the time, they did attempt to go down MTC, all five, but never got near the river, and were diverted north. It would take too long and if was necessary because the village was to big to go further, that 'plan' was a no-go anyway.
I look forward to reading Fred's book to see where I'm wrong, but I just cannot shake the image visible to the officers from Weir or near Weir and cannot imagine they'd choose to cross against the grain of the land to get to a notional northern crossing when MTC might be too late and dangerously dividing the command. It's Fred's photo or someone's that laid it out so clear for anyone to see but trained eyes could see always. I'll find it.
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jag
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Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
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Post by jag on Sept 3, 2012 21:22:42 GMT -6
Aw what the hell. Seems as though its not been the same every since I stuck my nose into this. Here goes.
Having sent Reno across the river in pursuit of the Indians. A report came in that a group of Indians had been observed on the hill to our right. This commander wants to round them all up and is hell bent on achieving that goal. And not knowing the exact size of the Indian body spotted on the hills to his right he abrubtly turns right to take pursuit with his full battalion. As if on que a little voice stutters the words, 'what about alerting Benteen, Reno and the pack train of this change'? The commander knows Reno can handle himself and has little concern to worry over something he has just ordered moments before. As for Benteen, he's in perfect position.
Not wanting to tire the horses needlessly, but maintain a gait equivalent to the pursuit, the commander skirts the base of the high hills at a gallop. THere was three reasons for this to be the gait and the way of pursuit, the first has been stated, the other was concern that the unknown number of Indians that might be awaiting them on the other side of that hill. And if those Indians that had just been on top of that hill had spotted the pack train in the rear, the direction taken would place his battalion in a position for easy interception, if should the Indians circle back and try to attack the pack train. The third reason was a bit of stealth and some trepidation. If there was a large mounted body of Indians the other side of this hill stealth would be lost and his fears confirmed. He immediatly orders a six man team to scout ahead, up and over the hill. And then commander orders 4's abreast as they start to swing back after skirting the hill but before entering the valley beyond. If the scout team reports the presence of the mounted Indians we'll be the one's to bushwhack them as they'll expect us to come the same way the scouting team went. If the Indians are not there, then the stealth approach to the reported village might not yet be compromised and if that's the case we'll need to get into a position to attack it from. This while precluding the possibility of them bushwhacking us either before we get there or after our arrival there at the place Bouyer informed us of.
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2012 21:39:38 GMT -6
Aw what the hell.... Here goes. Nice to see that, Jag. Really good job. And I mean it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2012 0:57:29 GMT -6
Thanks for that AZ.Your knowledge of the terrain and cross country riding are invaluable.
So we can take it that a competant horseman should have no more than a modicum of difficulty in negotiating a crossing. The river was in fact a tactical obstacle not a physical obstacle. From which we can conclude that if Custer did go North it was for the purpose of finding a place to cross which was not defended. Thus it would be inaccurate to nominate an actual ford as Custer objective. Not sure where that gets us;Fred might have a view. I could suggest that in advancing North on the opposite bank Custer did not consider himself cut off from Reno,initially .
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Post by montrose on Sept 4, 2012 6:05:57 GMT -6
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jag
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Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
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Post by jag on Sept 4, 2012 9:12:51 GMT -6
The commander knew that several of the Crows had gone to take a look at the village, and one of them had came back with that report and yet another from the scouting detail before they had entered the valley beyond. Reno's own couriers also reporting in along the way Indicated that there was a significant number of Indians just as his own preliminary figures indicated, and at least one of those villages was near Reno's approach, which by this time he should be pitching into. The crow scout reported that he could see a couple of camps circles, perhaps a part of another on downstream which the scouting detail had also reported. In addition the detail reported observing what appeared to be, for the most part, individuals out in front of them foraging for plants. Also it seems the main body of those Indians earlier spotted on the hill above their position were moving towards the highest vantage downstream at the remotest range that could be observable. The scouting detail after reporting crosses the path of the main column and heads for a high hill to their immediate right to keep an observable eye upon the Indians running that direction as there appeared to be several high hills in series cut by deep coulee's between them.
The stealth gig was now up, but the commander was undaunted by those reports. In fact they were encouraging. Looking around to spot Benteens position, the commander now feels confident his position is near enough to the pack train to keep it safe. The only other danger posed to it at the moment, lay at his own front. And even that didn't seem likely at the moment.
Still at the gallop he maintains his trusted Crow guides' predetermined direction, which is across this valley to a high hill downstream, from which vantage he should see the whole expanse of the immediate valley. His ultimate surveillance goal being a point about a mile beyond, from which it could be learned the exact nature of the Indian encampment dispositions on downstream.
At a point not far beyond entering the valley, he sends Capt. Keogh's company on the heels of the scouting detail in pursuit of those Indians that seem intent on being a point of distraction. Those orders being more flanker in nature for the protection of the main body.
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Post by benteen on Sept 4, 2012 10:34:13 GMT -6
Dan: If that is your firm conviction, one I only disagree in part with, then execute in with a word picture of your intended actions. How-Where-With What-When. OK. Here goes. From 3411 Custer can see that Renos attack has been checked and has formed a skirmish line. Since Reno has the warriors fixed, he decides to mount a flank attack. He heads North to the top of MTC and sends 2 companies under Yates down MTC to probe and see if the battalion can cross there. He remains with Keoughs battalion. (No disagreement) Heres where I take a different action. When I send Yates his orders are if it is a good crossing to signal me and I will bring the battalion up and attack. If not he is to RETURN to me NOT head North. Part2.... I now know the gig is up, my plan has collapsed, my thoughts now turn towards supporting Reno and saving my command. I do this by taking my battalion west, to the South of Weir Point. I spread out to present as formidable a force as I can. I want the warriors to see me. My hope is that the warriors that are on foot that are infiltrating Renos defense in the timber will get out of there and run to get their ponies and not want to be caught on foot. This will give Reno some relief. Part3..... When I reach Reno I have 3 choices 1... Collect the wounded and have an orderly retreat up to Reno Hill 2....Perhaps the timber was a diifficult almost impossible position to hold with 140 men, but is an ideal defensive position to hold with 350. It provides cover and concealment for my wounded, my troops and horses and has a water supply. 3.Gather the wounded and take the entire command South and west to Ford A and join with Benteen and have the entire regiment united I said Heinz Guderian, thats better than what he could come up with Be Well Dan
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Post by bc on Sept 4, 2012 22:25:04 GMT -6
Thanks for that AZ.Your knowledge of the terrain and cross country riding are invaluable. So we can take it that a competant horseman should have no more than a modicum of difficulty in negotiating a crossing. The river was in fact a tactical obstacle not a physical obstacle. From which we can conclude that if Custer did go North it was for the purpose of finding a place to cross which was not defended. Thus it would be inaccurate to nominate an actual ford as Custer objective. Not sure where that gets us;Fred might have a view. I could suggest that in advancing North on the opposite bank Custer did not consider himself cut off from Reno,initially . Interesting analysis and I would concur regarding the tactical obstacle although I didn't see Steve's original post. Part and parcel with the river is that the banks were probably the greater part of the tactical obstacle. bc
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Post by wild on Sept 5, 2012 3:02:58 GMT -6
Fred I think states that artifacts were found in and around a ford described as D. What was so unusual about this ford that had soldiers shedding equipment? If soldiers jettisoned accoutrements at a rate which provided artifacts 100 years later they must have been a sight to behold.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2012 4:41:51 GMT -6
Richard, I am not too sure that the soldiers jettisoned there equipment around this area, I am sure that I read somewhere that, later after the battle, a burial detail or maybe even a detail to clean the area, had place all the old Cavalry gear found in and around the area, in one place, you could call it a dump. Ian.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 5, 2012 4:44:45 GMT -6
Richard, I am not too sure that the soldiers jettisoned there equipment around this area, I am sure that I read somewhere that, later after the battle, a burial detail or maybe even a detail to clean the area, had place all the old Cavalry gear found in and around the area, in one place, you could call it a dump. Ian. Oh so that's where Benteen's dump was.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2012 5:45:45 GMT -6
Jag, he may have even taken a dump there for all I know. Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 5, 2012 6:00:12 GMT -6
Fred I think states that artifacts were found in and around a ford described as D. No... I never said any such thing. Not by a long shot. In fact, I do not recall ever claiming anything from the military was ever found at any ford, other than maybe some ancillary cartridge cases at Ford B, cases that could have even been deposited there by Indian celebrations. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2012 6:58:07 GMT -6
It may be from the Reno-Benteen disposal site, soldiers gathered up old kit and burnt it, and I think Doug Scott found this site in 1989.
Ian.
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