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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 27, 2012 16:51:37 GMT -6
Reno Hill was the top area of the draw they ran up. It had not been chosen for its values, it was just there at the top and a convenient assembly area. No decision was made to make a defense there (or anywhere) till they advanced to Weir. That's why they moved everyone. So damning R and B for not having made it a defensive area to that point rather misses it.
Any movement with 2 four man teams carrying wounded in blankets on foot and people leading horses and the bloody train is going to look - and sound - like a circus parade. The mules saw to that in their splendid humor. The wounded and the mules aren't given to parade ground precision nor should they be damned for it, given all. That's an unfair - and from the beginning - complaint about the move. It was going to look like hell.
It's good to remember that with the Army cavalry back then, they had ONE chance at a fight, because with wounded men and those walking because of mount loss after a battle, they couldn't just tell the casualties to walk and limp home without significant protection, leaving little else to pursue, win or lose. As with Crook, as with Custer.
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 16:53:18 GMT -6
Hi Colonel If I was not going to give you a stroll in the park then you are not taking prisoners either. The drill is for the bogged down unit to become the fire base with the maneuver element moving through to continue the advance. Decision time for Benteen.Everything points to him deciding to throw his lot in with Reno and sit it out.If the decision is to advance then a version of the above drill offers an option. Benteen never takes the packs under his control, if he intends to advance then he must do so now.Ammo and escort immediately forward,packs don't matter.Reno's position becomes one foot on the ground,strong point,fallback position.Benteen continues forward. This is where Benteen earns his wages.It requires organisation and decisiveness and there is an uncertain time element sure.
Your two points both try to make the best of the situation with some attempt to open communication with Custer. There is too little time and too much distance something must be jettisoned.Benteen jettisoned Custer without much thought to alternatives.What you suggested demonstrates that there were alternatives and even a version of my 1960s drill might have been possible. Best wishes
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 17:00:00 GMT -6
Your first sentence I agree with, but I believe that Benteen knew Custer didnt have anything covered. Dan, faith conquers all. Regards
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Post by montrose on Apr 27, 2012 17:18:53 GMT -6
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Post by benteen on Apr 27, 2012 17:23:30 GMT -6
Benteen never takes the packs under his control, if he intends to advance then he must do so now.Ammo and escort immediately forward,packs don't mattermust be jettisoned.. Best wishes Richard, Not a big deal but heres a little bit of a sticking point. I already stated that I thought Benteen had the right to, and made the right decision. But you and others believe his orders were to hurry to Custer. Were they? What were his orders. His orders were not "Leave everything and get here now" His orders were yes, "Be Quick" but more important was the "Bring Packs" It was in the written order twice. Knipe had also come with a message for the packs (Although I dont believe him) but Benteen did. I guess what I am saying is that by abandoning the packs and just charging to God knows where, to do God knows what wouldnt he have been disobeying the order to bring packs. Just a thought Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2012 17:27:29 GMT -6
Richard I am going to give you an off the cuff, without a lot of deep thought, idea of what I would do as a commander faced with this, and try not to insert any hindsight into it.
I would suspect that Reno is in no condition to command at this point, so I am going to strongly suggest to him, stepping into the role of Benteen, that I take over the maneuver element and that he form a base at the present location.
Such base would include the dropped packs, used to form barricades and barriers on a smaller piece of this ground, that could be expanded into a regiment (-) position the "Reno" strongpoint being the base position which if expanded would include other strongpoints with interlocking fire later down the road. I would safeguard the wounded inside this strongpoint. The strongpoint would be manned with the pack detail men from Custer's five companies along with the civilians and assorted straphangers. Excluding the wounded this would be about fifty or so men.
The remainder I would form into three two company squadrons. The worse off company from the valley fight would be broken up and divided between the stronger two companies from the valley fight, forming in effect two companies du marche. All of the other pack details would be returned to their parent companies. The two companies du marche would each be paired, one with one of Benteens companies and one with MacDougal. I would pick the three best officers on the field to command each of these squadrons regardless of rank or seniority. Any senior officer that objects to this arrangement would be placed in field arrest and remain with the trains, in irons if necessary.
After my preliminary patrols have returned, and assumning they went out a mile or so to insure that I was not walking into an ambush. I would form my three squadrons in an echelon right formation with a hundred yard gap between squadrons (all this terrain permitting) and move north. If and when I reach Weir Point or another position of advantage, and viewed the battlefield, the battle being over or in its final stages, and accessing the numbers of hostiles on the field., I would not delay more than thirty seconds, turn around and go back, join Reno and prepare for a defensive battle.
Now that's what I would do. Others may differ. I feel that from what I see forward I could not help Custer one bit and could only succeed in getting the rest of the regiment killed. My responsability passes at that moment from Custer to saving what I can and making the best of a very bad situation.
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Post by montrose on Apr 27, 2012 17:38:31 GMT -6
I think it is very obvious that Benteen disobeyed orders at LBH. He was ordered to bring up the pack train. He should have waited until the trains caught up to him before continuing.
Instead, he decided to disobey orders and continue moving to contact. If the Indians had attacked the train, there is no doubt that Benteen would be held responsible. Once he followed LTC Custer's right turn off Ash Creek, he created a situation where the enemy had an easy approach to the trains via Ford A.
Once he reached Reno's shattered force, this becomes academic. The term we use in military culture, is overcome by events. His primary function became to rally the Reno battalion, and conduct consolidation procedures. This means all the tasks necessary to reorganize a force for further combat. This means rally folks back to their companies, reestablish chain of command by replacing fallen leaders, arranging for treatment of wounded men and horses, redistributing weapons and ammunition, arranging a hasty defense, setting rally positions, command post, aid station, etc.
The argument that meeting Reno's force requires him to ignore Reno and abandon the pack train and just charge off blindly into the blue is one a regard as lunacy.There is no way any competent and sane officer would do so.
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Post by markland on Apr 27, 2012 17:47:20 GMT -6
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2012 17:58:24 GMT -6
You know William you bring up a very good point. Reno of course turned to the bluffs before he reached Ford A. It was either a spur of the moment decision or he saw evidence the the hostiles had enveloped his right and would reach the ford before him. Had he not turned and rather fought at the ford to cross he would have been jammed. It was therefore fortunate that Reno did make the decision to turn, which distracted any attention away from Ford A. It is also fortunate that the hostiles did not go down that way looking or the events you describe above would be the subject of all of our discussion vice the woulda. coulda, shoulda of going toward Custer we have been talking about ever since I entered these boards. Had your scenario played out, everything else would be academic.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2012 18:04:36 GMT -6
William and Billy: If you both feel that way I damn well better not want to cross any bridges in your parish.
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Post by montrose on Apr 27, 2012 18:07:44 GMT -6
Monsieur Reese,
I believe the critical event to understanding the valley fight is the Indian counterattack. A very large mounted force (500 plus) swept around Reno's exposed left flank. They did not turn in on his flank, but swept into his rear. They got between him and Ford A.
Gerry(on our neighbor board) posted a beautiful picture of how this looked. Go look at it.
LTC Custer failed to support his own advance guard. He should have committed Keough BN on Reno's left to block the Indian counterattack. Instead, LTC Custer put two nogo terrain featutes between the advance guard and main body, causing the loss at LBH.
v/r
William
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Post by montrose on Apr 27, 2012 18:11:03 GMT -6
Billy,
Since we have established that Fred is a four lettered word: Fred you.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 18:30:18 GMT -6
Dan only the ammo packs were of any use. charging to God knows where, to do God knows what Benteen was obliged to prosecute his order as far as it was reasonably possible to do so.My opinion for what's its worth is that point was Weir Point.Confirmation of Custer's status was required before proceeding or withdrawing.A good officer and scout could have obtained this information.
William Once he reached Reno's shattered force, this becomes academic. The term we use in military culture, is overcome by events. Insufficent information to make this call.
Colonel you are describing leadership,decisiveness,can do,restoring morale,determination,agressiveness. Was this beyond Benteen?One gets the impression he and his men stood around like Browns cows.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2012 18:40:05 GMT -6
MONSUR Montrose: Would it not be Reno's right flank if he was heading south as fast as his broken down nags legs would carry him? That is the context I used above. It would be his left flank had he remained oriented to the north. Had he remained oriented north much longer he would have been in , what are the words, "Freding deep doodoo", surrounded a river at his back, cut off from the ford, and the ford over which any possible relief would have to pass in the hand of Chief Piss in His Pants or another such worthy
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Post by benteen on Apr 27, 2012 18:45:38 GMT -6
[quote author=montrose board=Queries thread=4136 post=78852 time=1335569911
The argument that meeting Reno's force requires him to ignore Reno and abandon the pack train and just charge off blindly into the blue is one a regard as lunacy.There is no way any competent and sane officer would do so.[/quote]
Colonel Montrose,
This is exactly my feeling on this. An Officer of Benteens caliber, or any competant Officer would not dream of leaving this battalion in this condition. I also have viewed Jerrys picture and again I believe it depicts my thoughts of the onslought of Co C. They didnt have a chance
Be Well Dan
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