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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 10:38:48 GMT -6
Benteen presented the orders under which he was operating to Reno.Reno read them and made no reply.Situation ambigious.Benteen de facto throws his lot in with Reno.Command situation ambigious.Total lack of leadership and decisiveness. Minimum that was required from Benteen was a runner to Custer.Any likely candidates?How about Weir?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2012 10:41:27 GMT -6
DC: If Reno requested Benteen to lend him assistance then yes that request by the senior officer on that part of the field has the validity of an order. Unless though Reno specifically ordered Benteen not to go forward after that assistance was rendered, Benteen was still obligated to continue his previous mission.
Change of task organization: I maintain that Reno as senior officer on that part of the field also had the authority to change any existing task organization (existing battalions). I see no evidence that he did.
Other than saying - help me - which he did say, I cannot find any evidence where Reno interfered in any way.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 10:51:05 GMT -6
Colonel Change of task organization: I maintain that Reno as senior officer on that part of the field also had the authority to change any existing task organization (existing battalions). I see no evidence that he did. Countermand Custer's orders?No way. He relied on Benteen's decency and humanity.And Benteen was torn between between his duty and comradeship.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2012 11:18:36 GMT -6
Richard: I said I believe he had the authority. There is a long way from having the authority and doing something that you know would upset your boss. The answer was an academic one.
Benteen was torn between duty and duty. Were it as easy as the biblical quotation of rendering to Caesar, this conversation, perhaps this thread, would not be taking place.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 11:44:38 GMT -6
The right word at the right time is like precious gold set in silver Regards Colonel
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2012 12:02:07 GMT -6
Richard: There was an incident in the desert war where Rommel had set in motion a series of events that were unsustainable. He then went off and was out of contact with his headquarters for 72 hours. During that 72 hours the tactical situation changed considerably, to the point where Westphal and von Mellenthin issued an order that they knew would be in direct contradiction to Rommel's intent. When Rommel returned to his headquarters he was said to be very angry with his two subordinates. He walked into the command post, walked to the map table, studied it for about 30 seconds went off to his desk and said nothing more about the issue. Rommel in viewing the map understood that his subordinates had done the right thing, the right thing that would have caused their relief if Rommel was more concerned about how he looked, rather than what was important.
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Post by benteen on Apr 26, 2012 12:50:19 GMT -6
I believe that many battles are not static, they ebb and flow. An order given at 1300 hrs may not make any sense at 1315 hrs. That in my opinion is why we have Officers and train them and keep on training them, to be able to make decisions. If they couldn't do that, then all we would need are generals and privates. One gives the order, the other carries it out no matter what. By this I don't mean that the Officer can do what ever he pleases, he better have a darn good reason from deviating from the order. I think Colonel Quincannon gave a good example of that with Rommel. My own opinion is Benteens decision was the right one
Be Well Dan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 26, 2012 13:43:33 GMT -6
No opinions. It should be cut and dried, legal or not by the regulations of the US Army in 1876. Nothing else is relevant. It was not raised at the RCOI, and nobody claimed this duty for Benteen after meeting Reno with the added burden of the train.
1. Had Benteen accomplished his mission and returned to the command as ordered? If Reno is the Command stand in, as the regimental second in command, yes.
2. If Benteen is viewed as being mandated to continue unless Reno says the magic word 'stay' (which he may have at some point) after Reno's needs were met, he would have to continue with the packs and leave Reno, who could go with him, I suppose. Since we're agreed that horrendoplasty of wounded and packs would give St. Mary's Glacier in Colorado, even today, a run for slowest moving object in the west, and there would be no constructive point, are we also to think that Benteen still had to go to Custer because of those oral orders given to him hours previous?
If conditions had changed substantially (um, rather...) and previous descriptions of activity were revealed to have been surreal (to say no more....) and if this clearly falls under the heading of American officers being trained to use their heads and adapt to reality, why are we discussing this again? Strikes me that Reno and Benteen did okay. Not great, but better than the Army deserved, quite frankly.
Oh, right. Because wild wants to damn Benteen and the move to and from Weir Point, a process wild enjoys calling a shambles despite one (1) death and everyone else returning under fire to fight the next day under siege. While the single death does recall the death roll of major battles in the Irish Civil War and Revolution, it is absent a shot in the back of the head from behind or an assassination in ambush, so wild seeks to install something similar so he can relate.
When Custer sent Martini he didn't bother to tell Benteen the "Command" had bifurcated, a separation he planned to extend further. Apparently, Martini was assumed to have good enough English to report that separately, which he did.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 14:36:54 GMT -6
Dan You will realise that for every countermanded order which has a favourable outcome there is one which has ended in a monumental cockup. If a decision to diviate from orders is taken then you must be sure the CO has not got the situation covered.Benteen did not have this information.
Dark Cloud If conditions had changed substantiallyThis is true but applies to only one part of the field.In the Custer sector Custer had established a bridgehead and was awaiting Benteen in order to break out of the bridgeheadWell for all Benteen Knew.
When Custer sent Martini he didn't bother to tell Benteen the "Command" had bifurcated, Might have applied to the "command" but not the commander.Well not until LSH.
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 6:08:20 GMT -6
Further to Dark Cloud's Oh, right. Because wild wants to damn Benteen and the move to and from Weir Point, a process wild enjoys calling a shambles despite one (1) death and everyone else returning under fire to fight the next day under siege As always Dark Cloud favours lyrics over logic. This is his description of the rear elements of the "advance".Since we're agreed that horrendoplasty of wounded and packs would give St. Mary's Glacier in Colorado, even today, a run for slowest moving object in the west. When Benteen was on Weir Point the herrendoplasty tail was still in the neighbourhood of Reno hill.This is a gap of 1.64 miles and in the presence of the enemy. What was the purpose of the "advance"? Who was responsible for the rear guard? Were scouts advanced?Was anything remotely resembling what today is termed force protection attempted? What action was decided upon if attacked at any point along the axis of advance? Was a direction decided upon? Was the "advance" actually organised as a column or was it by individual units? That jaunt Northwards was really tempting the fates.Anyone with a modicum of tactical understanding would appreaciate the danger the command faced.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 27, 2012 8:47:14 GMT -6
While Benteen was on Weir Point, Reno was moving towards him. "In the neighborhood" is a weasel phrase. So is "in the presence of the enemy." Between Weir Pt. and Reno Hill there was no enemy at that time.
You've tried to blame the entire advance upon Benteen, but everything after him was by Reno's orders. The purpose of the advance was to keep the command together since the wounded could then be moved.
Your idiot list of concerns to try to implant substance to what has been for years your attempt to blame Benteen for something, anything, falls apart early because it didn't turn out to be either a shambles or much of a risk.
I didn't way what you imply I've said in the first above.
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 10:26:00 GMT -6
Dark Cloud The only item on my "idiot" list which you attempt to contradict is the "presence of the enemy" and that only demonstrates even more how all at sea you are on even the most basic of military maneuvers. The enemy could have had 2000 warriors on Weir Point within 6 minutes if they had not been otherwise engaged.The shambolic "advance" was just as exposed as Custer's command was on battle ridge. Between Weir Pt. and Reno Hill there was no enemy at that time. "At the time" is about as weasel as you can get.But it's more than weasel it's stupid. falls apart early because it didn't turn out to be either a shambles or much of a risk Did you ever hear of insurance? Do you understand that the strenght of an army is its organisation,it's leadership,command and control?What advanced to Weir Point was little more than one of your street gangs.
You say my first point escaped you? You are on one hand defending the manner of the advance and on the other making the comparison between the rear elements and some Boulder glacier.
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Post by wild on Apr 27, 2012 14:35:26 GMT -6
Just a line or two for clarity. The command was in a combat zone.3 Troops had been badly mauled and it was plain that numbers weighed heavely against the 7th. By advancing in the fragmented manner in which it did the entire command was in the air.That is, it had no insurance cover against the unexpected.[Custer's command was annihilated because it was caught in the air.Fred might disagree] Unprofessional to say the least. The thread heading could just as easely apply to Benteen.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2012 15:06:33 GMT -6
Richard: Either I have missed something here in translation, or there is a disconnect.
I think, by your previous posts that you are an advocate of Benteen going forward with his battalion, and I suspect that you mean by rendering very little or no assistance to Reno as he passes him on the bluffs.
Then you go on to say that when they did advance the thing had more of an atmosphere of Barnum and Bailey coming to town than it did a military operation. I will concede this second point.
Where the disconnect is in my mind is that had Benteen gone on leaving Reno on the back trail, with the pack train even further behind would there not have been the same or more seperation between the three elements. Would they not be even more vulnerable. Would each of them not be more vulnerable to defeat in detail. Sure seems like they would to me.
Now were this not to be there would only be two choices
Course of Action 1: Everybody stays where they are, throw out a perimeter defense, send out patrols, and ruminate on any further course of action once you are provided the intelligence the patrols come up with. This is the very safe approach. Does not do a damned thing for Custer, but everyone else is secure and the more time that passes before the hostiles return the more secure they are because the level of combat efficiency is being revived and restored.
Course of Action 2: Stabilize the Reno situation. Send out recon patrols to gather intelligence about both the friendly and enemy situation. If feasible, and at this point you have no reason to suspect otherwise have your patrols contact Custer or at least locate him, consistent with obtaining information, not fighting. As quickly as possible restore Reno to some combat efficiency. If the decision is to go on, go on as one united command, scouts out, and the main body in as compact a formation as possible. You will have to make provisions for your wounded. You will have to dump the supplies and get immediate ammunition supplies readily available in some sort of ad-hoc combat trains. Were it me I would leave the wounded with a small care and guard detachment along with the dumped trains. The difference here is I have the benefit of hindsight as to the enemy situation that Reno/Benteen did not have. That's a tough call.
Both of these courses of action stink to high heaven, but do you see any others?
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Post by benteen on Apr 27, 2012 15:24:04 GMT -6
Dan You will realise that for every countermanded order which has a favourable outcome there is one which has ended in a monumental cockup. If a decision to diviate from orders is taken then you must be sure the CO has not got the situation covered.Benteen did not have this information. Richard, Your first sentence I agree with, but I believe that Benteen knew Custer didnt have anything covered. Be Well dan
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