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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 17:59:06 GMT -6
Whether they COULD have joined up is a different question to whether they SHOULD have tried....Too many variables as to what difference,good or bad it would have made........The first question is an interesting exercise,the second is us making Judgement calls........ My opinion on the first is, no, they could not have joined up, not after the delay caused by Reno's routed forces. The second, while I understand your point as to us debating various judgments, I believe it would be a short-lived debate. Benteen had a mere 115 or so men; you could add to that McDougall's "B"; and then once organized 35 and 38 men for companies "A" and "M"... though those numbers may be high because of the wounded and the troops left in the timber. All told, you probably couldn't muster many more than what Custer had, and only then by denuding the packs. So what do we have...? Two separate "Custer" battles. Custer was destroyed almost piecemeal... this would have been merely another piece. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 18:27:53 GMT -6
Fred: That's the way I see it also. They would have been cut up by themselves, perhaps not a massacre, but bad enough, and no matter when they arrived would not have changed the outcome, except add to the body count. The thing that is remarkable about this is that no matter what anyone's particular time line of the fight lasting, Dan and Richard's half hour, my 45 minutes, or your hour and fifteen, Benteen arrives to late even under the best conditions, contained in course of action #1..
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Post by wild on Apr 24, 2012 23:34:26 GMT -6
Whether they COULD have joined up is a different question to whether they SHOULD have tried.... He was obliged to have tried,he was lucky he did not. The measure of a man is what he tried to do not the fortuitous outcome of his neglect.
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Post by steve1956 on Apr 25, 2012 3:16:51 GMT -6
Well,That's where we'll agree to differ.....Yes,Custer sent an order..That referred to an earlier situation....Benteen made a decision(which is what Officers are for)...If he had led his men on to death,would we now be saying "Why didn't he use his common sense"?...But these are questions of opinion,not history........
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Post by quincannon on Apr 25, 2012 8:07:55 GMT -6
You know Richard I understand what you are saying here. Don't like the idea of guilt at all. Having had health issues as you know, during the treatments you made friends with others in the same boat. Some of those others died, and I lived. It makes you wonder why. It makes you think why them not me. Well when you find the answer let me know. While I rationalize that perhaps me living was for a greater good or a promise yet unfulfilled, the feeling lingers.
Now I maintain that Benteen tried. I think he went on to do what he felt to be the right thing. He had no idea he would be late, but as Fred has shown us he would be late even under the best of circumstances. So if you want to put a label on this use the label Clauswitz used, the fog and friction of war. How many died in Holland? Did the Guard's Armored Division delay on purpose, or out of neglect? Were they delayed by a combination of unforseen circumstances? Was it an attempt to execute a plan that was far too ambitious and dreamed up by a good and proper cock up?
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Post by steve1956 on Apr 25, 2012 8:34:29 GMT -6
How many died in Holland? Did the Guard's Armored Division delay on purpose, or out of neglect? Were they delayed by a combination of unforseen circumstances? Was it an attempt to execute a plan that was far too ambitious and dreamed up by a good and proper cock up? Good example.........
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Post by wild on Apr 25, 2012 23:57:42 GMT -6
Hi Colonel, I'v searched the RCOI in vain for a mention of "fog and friction of war".The court did not take it into consideration in their judgement of Reno. Now I do not deny that it does exist but it's influence cannot be quantified. If we use it to explain Benteen's actions then it had a most benign effect .It brought the attack to a permanent halt resulting in many lives being saved. If it is factored into the equation then we must conclude that there is no blame attached Benteen and by the same reasoning there is no credit due to him.
He had no idea he would be late, but as Fred has shown us he would be late even under the best of circumstances. I know you are not using hindsight to support your position but you must allow me the same latitude----Custer was just beyond Weir Point with the ford at his mercy,his command in battle formation awaiting the arrival of Benteen. Best wishes
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2012 3:52:51 GMT -6
Did the leaving of Capt. Weir and later D Company force Reno and Benteen into following him to Weir peaks?, if Weir had not suggested a move to see what was going on with Custer’s wing and kept his thoughts to himself, would Benteen and Reno come up with a plan to go to Custer’s aid or would they have stayed put and delayed even further any attempt to see what was going on up north.
Ian.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 5:35:53 GMT -6
Ian Leadership had broken down.Reno had responsibility but really could not exercise authority over his "savior" Benteen.Benteen had become the ad hoc leader but did not exercise a direct leadership.It was more like follow me if you want to.The leadership dynamic was disfunctional to say the least.One way to judge the leadership issue is to look at how the wounded were treated. The only reason to advance ,and that is questionable,is to seek out Custer.The "come on" order still resonated but any tactical reason for advancing had long dissipated. My guess is that Weir just triggered what Benteen would have come around to doing anyway.Reno on the other hand was not obliged to move. Perhaps these two opposing dynamics were the cause of the Weir Point shambols. Best Wishes
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2012 6:01:03 GMT -6
Hello Richard how are you old chap.
If Capt. Benteen was considered subordinate to Maj. Reno (I read somewhere on this board that Benteen never gave command of his Battalion to Reno), who actually gave the order to move the extra Companies north after Capt. Weir and D Company had left, if Reno's head was all over the place it must have been Benteen, unless Reno had recovered his composure and issued the order himself.
Ian.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 6:22:24 GMT -6
Ian I'm open to correction but I think Benteen moved off with only his own company.Other companies simply followed.Moylan brought up the rear with the wounded.The packs had no instructions and just followed on. Best Wishes
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2012 8:17:37 GMT -6
Richard: If fog and friction could be quanified it would not be fog and friction.
This is one of those areas where there may be no common ground. That is not surprising. There rarely is where judgment calls are concerned.
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Post by wild on Apr 26, 2012 8:34:15 GMT -6
Touche colonel ;D
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2012 9:48:34 GMT -6
Richard if you are correct, it sounds like the blind leading the blind.
Ian
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 26, 2012 10:12:19 GMT -6
This makes no sense to me.
If Benteen had completed his mission - nothing south on the LBH - and was returning to the command, as most admit, he was doing fine. Reno was part of the command and a senior officer and requested his assistance (which elsewhere on this board I've been told is an actual order, if a 'request' comes from a senior officer to yourself.) It had been some time since Custer and Benteen had had contact. At this point his battalion was part of Reno's command, as you cannot sorta/kinda be under someone but not really.
But here it's contended and implied this is not so, that Benteen could NOT dissolve his battalion role till he'd been relieved by Custer of it. By that standard, would Benteen be required to keep searching for Custer even if Custer had headed north to Terry? And what if they did that and Terry had been wiped out or Custer had been wiped out en route, as may have been the case in reality?
I'd assume that he wouldn't be damned to wander the prairie because the fairy officer who gave him the command was not alive to release the spell. I'd assume that any officer ranking him could do it as Reno had.
So, was Benteen legally able - even legally required - to tell Reno to get bent because he HAD to find Custer even thought it made no sense, was dangerous, and where was Custer anyway? This strikes me as one of those gray areas that an Army needed to resolve early on or it was toast. I think ours had, and Benteen was required to stay with Reno as requested, since his mission had been completed and he had returned to be under command of ranking officers. Nobody suggested Benteen had done wrong in that matter through the RCOI, and I wonder why it continues to rise up after being slammed down so many times.
Should be easy: he was either legally correct or not by Army regulations.
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