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Post by steve1956 on Apr 24, 2012 10:50:56 GMT -6
Yes,I think it's just a case of Benteen pausing for the packs & sorting out the messy situation on Reno hill..........Then,with due care,he proceeds until it becomes obvious,that if nothing else,there are sufficient hostiles between him & Custer to render adherance to the note impossible.......Oh Dear...My first opinion.........
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 10:55:37 GMT -6
Oh Dear, and a well reasoned opinion it was in my view.
He who goes rashly forward with a hoop and a holler, dies with barely a wimper.
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 13:19:04 GMT -6
Oh Dear...My first opinion......... Ofttimes the best. You have put together a well-reasoned, well-thought-out account. You have used some available evidence, you have applied solid logic and good reason, and you have shown no prejudice in any direction. In my opinion, very nicely done. It is all one can ask from a fellow student. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Apr 24, 2012 13:19:11 GMT -6
Hi Colonel I had intended an indepth reply to your most interesting dispatch,many strong points, but having checked in I find things have moved on a bit with a nice public relations type statement from Steve1956. So you won't mind if I use his post as a starting point and I'll try to address some of the points you raised. NO STEVEY BABY it was not as smooth and as pat as that.Hold the victory champers. Benteen's team work,his committment to the mission is manifest in his total repeat total disregard for the packs.At the RCOI the pack commander states that he acted under the directions of first Custer then Reno.No mention of Benteen. Benteen arrives at the Reno crash site and reports his command and orders to Reno the pilot of the wreck.Great move. Reno states in the RCOI that Benteen's troops are now under his command.Custer's orders are now rendered obsolete and are no longer relevant. Benteen's entire contributation is to hand over to a shocked officer his command and the packs. The cost of this judgement call is 50 minutes.Fred makes light of this but what is 50 minutes?It is the total time of Reno's attack and withdrawal and my guess is that it is more time than the Indians required to finish off Custer. "Judgement calls" which my opponents [everyone]in this debate allow Benteen, miss one little detail.Has the CO got the situation covered or not.Why did Benteen think Custer was not au fait with Reno's discomfiture? Should the purpose of a judgement call not be to support the mission.How did Benteen's judgement call support the mission? This point you make colonel is very strong ---every man Jack who survived the battle owe their lives to Benteen. If this was the only criteria by which the performance of officers were judged then -no problem,issue conceeded. But in reinforcing your point you suggest that if Benteen had adhered to his orders as I have advocated it would have resulted in an even worse tragedy.Would it?Is it possible that if Benteen had prosecuted his orders as befitting a senior officer he could have gained the same result if not better? The substantive difference between you and perhaps the combat vets and myself can be measured in distance.1.64 miles to be precise. Benteen's orders could if followed have taken him to Weir point 50 minutes sooner that he actually arrived there. That is the point at which he would have been justified in making a judgement call. If I mention Al Pacino's half time speech to his troops do I weaken my arguement?I care not.It's the f*****g 6 inches in front of your face that you fight for.Benteen had 1.64 miles he could have fought for.He owed it to his 210 comrades.That is the issue. Best wishes
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 13:22:16 GMT -6
Fred: By your calculations.... I shall return!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 13:39:13 GMT -6
Richard I am going to wait for Fred's numbers before I respond. And then based on your half hour to dispatch Custer, see where we would be under the parameters of the three different options I outlined.
You know of course that the differences between our two positions have no right answer. They are seperated by opinion and judgments as to the proper course to take. It seems reasonable then were either you or I in Benteen's stead, one of us would have a lot of explaining to do for getting himself killed, and the other would have to explain why he didn't get himself killed. No win proposition either way.
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Post by wild on Apr 24, 2012 14:51:48 GMT -6
Agreed Colonel but I'm not going to give you guys a stroll in the park. Well done Regards
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 15:02:34 GMT -6
Richard: If I was looking for a stroll in the park I would go to the other site or take on single handed the North Korean People's Army. Both of them are one shot wonders and don't having staying power. You do. Have at it Old Son.
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Post by steve1956 on Apr 24, 2012 15:35:13 GMT -6
I too shall await further developments........We have actions..We have timings...What we will never have more than educated guesses on,are the "Whys"?.....
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 15:48:35 GMT -6
Steve: Just to get you in the picture Richard (Wild) and Dan (Benteen) both have very similar theories of how the Custer portion of the battle took place. Mine it quite similar, based entirely upon what I see of the remains (locations and the like). Anyway they think and make very good arguments that Custer was not run to ground, rather five seperate companies were run to ground out of supporting distance one from the other, and in essence five seperate battles took place in about half an hour's time frame. My thoughs are similar, my running to ground does not agree with them in every detail, but close enough, although I give it about 45 minutes. Therefore the speed at which Benteen advanced given my three variations, coupled with the half hour or even 45 minute battle time frame, could be a critical factor in determining if Benteen could have done any good or not. Fred starts the Custer portion just after 1500 hours, and even Fred only gives Custer 75 minutes or so.
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 16:11:37 GMT -6
Sir Chuck! “Approximations”? Is this all you think of my work? “Approximations”? I am stricken to the core… hurt, do you hear? Hurt!But I will give you the numbers anyway…. How much approximate time would elapse between the time that Benteen received the "be quick" message and Benteen's earliest possible arrival on Weir Point or Luce Ridge (in other words a place where Custer in trouble could have been seen heard and action taken), assuming that he had no responsibility for packs and no intervention in Reno's troubles? Benteen received the note at 2:41 PM; (Reno’s troops are beginning to reach the hilltop) and George Custer is sitting atop Luce Ridge. Benteen is about 2½ miles from Weir Peaks. If you compute a speed of 8 MPH (a slow gallop), he would reach Weir by about 3 PM. At 3 PM, Custer is sitting atop Ford B. Total time: 19 minutes. If Benteen watched from Weir, then started to move north using Cedar Coulee—and assuming he traveled at the same speed Custer did, through a circuitous and difficult coulee—he would have reached Luce Ridge (having waited 0 minutes on Weir) at 3:35 PM. At that time Custer was at the northern end of the Battle Ridge extension, about 1¼ miles north of Calhoun Hill. Keogh is deploying his troops and there were no noticeable threats. Total time: 54 minutes. Okay… we need to make some assumptions here. The note time is the same: Benteen receives it at 2:41 PM. Mathey and the packs are about 1 3/8 miles east of the lone tepee and Benteen is one mile west of the tepee, so they are close to 2½ miles apart (Mathey has traveled a little more than two miles from the morass, and McDougall, just now catching up to the rear of the pack train is a little less than two miles from the morass). Now, based on your scenario in post #30, Benteen would have sent someone back to Mathey to explain the situation. Again, using a slow gallop of 8 MPH—no greater speed needed because of the situation—we can assume a messenger would have reached Mathey at approximately 2:55 PM. (Custer would be just arriving at the bluffs overlooking Ford B). Because of the way you have worded your situation, I would assume you would expect Benteen to have been halted while this was all going on. Using the same speed for the messenger to catch up, the time would be 3:09 when Benteen was informed that Mathey understood the situation and his mission. We would also now assume Benteen’s speed would decrease somewhat because the tail is wagging the dog a bit. Therefore, bring it down to about 6 – 7 MPH, a slow trot. Benteen would reach Weir Peaks at about 3:34 PM. At 3:34 PM, Custer was a little more than 1 mile north of Calhoun Hill and Keogh was deploying his troops. Indians had just reached a point within 100 yards of Battle Ridge and were beginning to loft their arrows into Harrington’s command. Note time remains 2:41 PM. 2:57—Benteen arrives on Reno Hill. 3:07—Volley firing heard. 3:09—Lead mules of the pack train begin arriving at the lone tepee. 3:09—Keogh begins leaving Luce for Nye – Cartwright. 3:18—LT Hare heads for the pack train. 3:27—CPT Weir decides to head downstream. 3:35—Weir, with his striker, is heading downstream. 3:40—Edgerly, having mounted D Company, begins downstream. 3:43—Hare, approaching the hilltop, sees the end of D Company departing. 3:45—Harrington is attacked furiously in Calhoun Coulee. 3:46—Custer is moving away from Ford D. 3:48—McDougall and his lead platoon are approaching Reno Hill. 3:51—Weir reaches the northernmost peak. 3:54—The packs are seen several hundred yards off, and Reno orders the command to move north. 3:54—Custer reaches Cemetery Ridge. And that is all you are getting from me. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 16:23:18 GMT -6
Fred: I said approximate times because everyone knows that the volley was fired at EXACTLY 3:07 plus 22 and a third seconds. Details. You can''t get off the toilet until all of the paperwork details are cleaned up. "Attention to detail Mr Cohill. This is not a classroom out here."
Thanks.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 17:21:31 GMT -6
Fred: So in:
Course of action #1 Benteen arrives on Luce, and Keogh is deploying. One of two things would then have happened. 1) Benteen moves toward Keogh and makes it, only to get cought up in the same fight, and with probably the same result. 2) On his way to Keogh he finds hostiles between them. He is still involved in the fight but Benteen unlike Keogh or Custer has a potential back door.
Course of action # 2 Benteen arrives later, and in all probability finds a lot of hostiles between him and Keogh. He might have done some good, before having to exit the back door, but not enough good to save anyone..
Course of Action #3 History. To many indians. Not enough combat power. Save what you can, move back and dig in.
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Post by steve1956 on Apr 24, 2012 17:30:09 GMT -6
Whether they COULD have joined up is a different question to whether they SHOULD have tried....Too many variables as to what difference,good or bad it would have made........The first question is an interesting exercise,the second is us making Judgement calls........
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 17:36:41 GMT -6
Course of action... 2) On his way to Keogh he finds hostiles between them. He is still involved in the fight but Benteen unlike Keogh or Custer has a potential back door. Based on the timing work I have done-- much vaster than what I just posted-- Benteen would have seen one heck of a lot of Indians... because of where he was and the various coulees, a lot more than Keogh would have seen. Benteen would have seen the threat from Deep Coulee and the growing threat from the east. He would not have seen the problems beginning to arise in Calhoun Coulee. Best wishes, Fred.
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