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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2012 9:25:22 GMT -6
Richard: Everyone's views are clouded in some way by their own experience. Benteen was a pro. The fact that you don't agree with his actions is what your reading, coupled with your experience tells you, and that is all well and good. It is from that variance of views that good discussions are made.
Now, were I to receive that same note in that same situation, knowing only what had gone on before, and what my senses detected at that moment, I would interpret it in the following manner.
I would look at my directed mission to bring my command forward at all deliberate speed consistent with the security (always an implied task)of my command to a point somewhat over that way, but having Martin available to guide me at least as far as his point of departure I would not be concerned about that part. Now it also says I am to bring packs (twice - I would conclude to add additional emphasis).
Being the commander thus charged it is up to me to figure out the how. I would inform the commander of the packs and the pack train security of the message, telling them that I will clear their front and to follow the determined azmuth of advance. I would further caution them in the same message to be especially watchful of their flank security. While I am able to sweep their front for them, the size of my force does not allow me to secure the flanks of their advance. I would then advance as a covering force at a speed consistent with that mission, leaving connecting files to both insure that the correct azmuth is maintained (guides if you will) and to give me any warning of hostile activity that develops between my column and the packs. This is sort of a covering force, but does not meet the strict definition of one. Therefore speed of my command would be greater than the speed of the packs although not quite as great as if I did not have that responsability. I conclude that the above is a fair summation of what Benteen actually did, perhaps not in every detail but close enough as we say for government work.
Now that situation is modified as he meets Reno on the bluffs. Reno is the senior officer, but dismiss that for the moment. The friction of war has interviened. The unexpected has happened. Given this very same situation, in my judgment it would be up to me to render aid even if I was not specifically ordered to do so. Reno must be restored to combat efficiency. I can assist in this, and I feel I have a responsability to do so. My time with Reno also allows the packs to close the relative gap. Once aid is rendered I have a responsability to return to my original mission, unless Reno as senior officer countermands my previous orders. Captain Weir seems impatient with me and goes swaning off into the Blue (a term from the desert war). I will deal with him at a later time, but I will not be chivied into haste until I am satisfied that I have rendered the "required (not all possible) degree of assistance" to Reno. Then assuming I have no countermand from Reno I will move forward consistent with previous instructions. All these things are judgment calls. That is mine.
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dcary
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by dcary on Apr 23, 2012 9:51:19 GMT -6
Quote: One other bitty point discussed ad nauseum but because we have new friends here---The "be quick" message.The pharseology mattered not at all.What mattered was that military protocol obliged Benteen to report his command to Custer.
It is worth mentioning that until some time after joining forces with Reno reporting to Custer is very probably what Benteen felt he was doing. He went to the sound of the firing, and with the shape and morale state Reno's batallion was in I doubt that specific command arrangements -- I don't believe Benteen knew of the splitoff of Reno's companies until Reno told him -- were as all-important immediately as they seem to have become to others after the event.
Unless one discounts Kanipe entirely, the fact that a rather similar message did go to Benteen weakens somewhat the 'exhortation' hypothesis. If I remember correctly, Kanipe said he told Benteen something like "they want you up there as fast as you can get there" or something quite similar. On the other hand, Kanipe also said he was told to relay this IF he saw Benteen, which would suggest the packtrain had higher priority in the order-giver's view.
The only way the "be quick -- bring pacs" is not a contradiction is if those sending the order thought Benteen was behind, not in advance of, the pack train.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 23, 2012 10:07:30 GMT -6
First, the 'be quick' vs. 'come quick' aspect is valid. For proof, the fact that everyone tries to pretend that the message said 'come quick' would not be necessary in their minds if it meant the same thing. It does not, then or now.
Second, the 'order' is devoid of time, location, or plan regarding either the enemy or the issuer. Previously, Wild condemned that and the lack of official order book, but running out of potential comparisons with an Irish fiasco he now claims it a rigid order implying Benteen betrayed Custer by not rushing to his side.
Third, Kanipe's story changed over time. His early stories are devoid of the order to rush overland dropping boxes and, in any case, were for the train, not Benteen. There is considerable doubt he gave those orders at all. The original story was merely to gather up the horrendoplasty Custer knew the train to be and bring it forward asap because action was imminent. Boilerplate. There is no way Custer imagined the train to dash splendidly as a unit anywhere. Also, Kanipe could easily have lied.
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Post by benteen on Apr 23, 2012 13:10:44 GMT -6
There is a thread in our sister forum "Did Benteen Dawdle" not was he too slow, but he dawdled. To me the term dawdle connotes and intentional act, that he didn't rush on purpose.I value all opinions, mine is that he the took the right action. Those that feel the same way always seem to have to prove this opinion. Steve and ZGal riding the route, location of lone tepee, Cooke's message etc. I would like to tackle this from a different direction. Will someone that believes that Benteen knew Custer was in trouble and didn't go to him but rather dawdled, tell me why he would do that. Why would an Officer of Benteens caliber not rush to the aid of fellow soldiers that he felt were in trouble.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2012 13:19:44 GMT -6
Benteen wouldn't. He would have done what he sees to be his duty. To believe he "purposefully dawdled" you would have to believe that his hatred for Custer was of such magnitude that it would place himself in the role of a perverted felon. Don't think he had much use for him, but at the same time were Custer to be out there all by his lonesome I think Benteen would have done everything he could prudently keeping his responsability to his own command in mind to go to his aid, barring the unforseen circumstance. This does not even place into consideration that there were 209 other people involved.
Those that opine that he dawdled also write their own script. Battles do not follow scripts. Movies follow scripts. The movies had Arthur Kennedy tied up in the back of an escort wagon. That didn't happen either.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 23, 2012 13:47:35 GMT -6
Saving Custer would have been much better in Reno and Benteen's eyes and careers than watching him and their friends die. Has all the plusses, none of the minuses (which would included their deaths by infuriated subordinates). It's a stupid, juvenile accusation with no evidence. Nobody would have tolerated that.
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Post by benteen on Apr 23, 2012 13:55:13 GMT -6
Colonel/Dark Cloud,
That is exactly my thoughts. Benteen, forget Benteen, no Officer, heck no private would intentionally allow 210 of his brother soldiers die simply because he didn't like somebody. I believe even the most pro Custer and anti Benteen people know that. That is why I posed the question, what else could there be to have that train of thought. I have seen for 2 years people explain with facts and logic why he didn't dawdle, but have never seen once, not once, anyone explain why they think he did.
Be Well Dan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 23, 2012 15:36:04 GMT -6
Only Bevo Boy contends that, and only those who gain a false delusion of self worth from discussion with conz would believe it. It cannot be a mistake that those who've been in combat tend to be complimentary of Benteen and more tolerant of Reno's choices overall. The poseurs damn them. Not hard to imagine reasons.
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Post by montrose on Apr 23, 2012 15:40:54 GMT -6
Dan,
Custer's supporters slander Benteen, because he makes their hero look bad by comparison.
The intent is to show that no competent officer could have had a better outcome at LBH. Benteen showed that tactical ability and true leadership skills matter.
Notice Benteen consolidated the 7 companies in the rear, and fought them as a unit. Custer scattered his five companies all over the place, where each died out of supporting distance of the other four.
Good luck blaming Benteen for Custer's piss poor tactical performance in the north. May as well blame Barnum, the mule that tried to desert to the Indians.
So the issue is protecting Custer's reputation by blaming his subordinates for following his orders. It is emotion based, not reality based.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by wild on Apr 23, 2012 17:26:31 GMT -6
Fred,Colonel Well argued,good points. But first before putting together a riposte to do justice to your dispatches let me deal with a point our friend William made--- Notice Benteen consolidated the 7 companies in the rear, This was after he had scattered them over 1.5 miles from Reno Hill to Weir Point more than twice the distance Custer scattered his command.
You guys are in agreement though coming at it from slightly different angles.If I can state it thus flexibility rather than rigid adherence to orders and the use of judgement calls. Given those parameters it should be possible to frame Benteen not as a villian but as the hero. Problem is Benteen does precious little to assist you guys in this endevour. Let's see how flexibility works.Benteen is between a rock and a hard place in relation to the packs.How does he deal with this problem?He ignores the packs.They do not exist as far as he is concerned.On arrival at the Reno crash site one would imagine that the first thing he would do was to send a runner back to the packs to immediately inform the commander of the urgency of the situation and to bring forward the reserve ammo.This he does not do. On arrival at Reno hill he make the judgement call which will make him the outstanding hero of the tragedy.He reports his command to Reno and relinquishes command of his battalion. The judgement call is 180 degrees off his orders.You cannot say that he intended returning to his orders when the packs arrived.All further maneuvers at that point were up to Reno. Further, the time spent with Reno was tactical time.What was it 45 minutes?That's critical time,win or lose time.You read of armies stealing a march,Benteen gave away a march. Unlike judgement calls,following orders does not require justification. Best Wishes
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2012 18:20:47 GMT -6
Richard: This may simply be a mute discussion based upon different outlooks by different armies. We place high value on individual judgment, in the interpretation of orders, and adaptability to unforseen or changing situations. I am not familiar with how Ireland does it, so I am not going to venture any sort of view on that. All I can tell you is that situational awareness is very important to us to the extent that a commander who detects a basic change of overall situation post orders has an obligation to address that change and not just charge on through with a set of blinders on.
Now I do disagree with you on one point above factually. Benteen did not relinquish command to Reno. To my knowledge Reno nerver attempted to take command of Benteen's battalion. Could he? Yes, Did he? You would have to show me proof of that.
Therefore with no action taken on Reno's part Benteen was still under the obligation to go to Custer's aid in accordance with previous orders. Could Benteen have legitimately swaned on by Reno and moved out smartlly? Yes he could. In fact that is what you suggest he do. Now let's for a moment say he did.
Further let's say that he arrived in time to get Custer's fat out of the fire. Let's further say that the violent execution of his attack into the exposed flank or rear of the hostiles drove those arayed against Custer away and joy once again prevailed in Peaceful Valley.
So they get together Old Yellow Hair and what some refer to as Old Yellow Stain, have a Bar B Q on Calhoun Hill, and someone up and says I wonder where old Marcus and McDougal are?. Well having an overabundance of hot dogs they send a galloper along the backtrail for those two worthies and find two hundred dead men there at the point Old Freddie rode past Reno at the gallop? What then?
Damn it Richard. You know you can't save them all, You know that a commander must make these judgment calls. You know sometimes outcomes ain't pretty. In war people die. Some die for the right reasons. Some die because someone made a mistake. Some die because a commander cannot serve two masters at the same time, and has to use his judgment, his knowledge at the time, to make decisions and pray they are right and take full responsability if they are wrong.
If the American Army thought that decision making, the weighing of risk and reward, and dealing with the ever changing tactical landscape were an easy matter they could simply issue a handbook containing a list of all possible situations, along with the approved school solution. Find this - Do that. The average American officer in a twenty year career spends 15 percent of it in schools learning to make these decisions. Money well spent in my view. Not as cheap as printing a handbook, but not as expensive in lives that would be lost by doing only what is "approved"
You know Richard every soldier that walked, or was carried off that battlefield alive owes their life in some manner or measure to Fred Benteen. Had he done what you suggest there would by my count and measurements been 8 seperate groups of soldiers spread out over six plus miles. Do you really think that is the way to go?
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Post by steve1956 on Apr 24, 2012 3:28:10 GMT -6
I don't think there's anything to suggest that following the link-up on Reno hill,Benteen saw Custer as "needing aid".....At that point,in his view,it was Benteen that needed aid!....The (little) stuff I've read suggest the general feeling was that Custer was off somewhere and needed to get back ASAP...........
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 6:35:31 GMT -6
Steve,
I agree with you and if you do the timing properly it becomes clear neither Reno nor Benteen sat on their haunches before moving north. Now, there was some silly stuff going on, e. g., Reno's hunt for Hodgson, but that would not have changed much. I just read somewhere that Benteen should have hurried the packs along-- send someone back-- because of the ammo business, but that person forgets that Benteen, immediately after throwing out a skirmish line to chase off encroaching Indians on the east bank, distributed his men's ammo to those of Reno's command that needed it, then sent Hare back (on Godfrey's horse) to speed along two of the ammo mules.
I still doubt seriously that Weir blew a fit and moved forward, even though Benteen criticized him for doing so. There is as much-- maybe more-- information that says Weir and Reno never spoke as there is that they had words. In fact, the people who claimed they fought should have been on a skirmish line, dozens of yards away.... So what was the purpose?
If Weir left on his own, with just his orderly, I see little wrong with that and Edgerly simply mistook the action as "permission granted."
If there was any delay, it was in waiting to make sure the packs were reasonably safe and when McDougall was seen moving up in front of the mules, Benteen and crew began their move forward. That fulfilled the "bring packs" portion of the Cooke note.
The entire time spent on Reno Hill, from the time the last of Benteen's troops arrived to the time he began his move north, was probably no more than 50 minutes, not some two to three hours as some idiots would want us to believe.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 7:56:10 GMT -6
Steve: I disagree with you, but only slightly. Benteen knew, by virtue of the note that Custer wanted him. We assume, because the note is not specific that Custer wanted him at Custer's location. I believe that to be a good assumption. What the note does not say, and what Benteen had no way of knowing is that Custer was in trouble, or that the need was urgent. In fact when the note was sent, Custer was not in trouble. That would come shortly but not then. So Benteen has the note. Benteen has Martin, saying that the enemy was on the run. He moves forward, runs into the Reno mess, and decides he has an obligation to Reno as well, and that obligation is in the here and now. We also must assume that Benteen viewed getting Reno back into some state of order was an immediate requirement, for the overall health of the command. Once done, it was then on to Custer.
I would dearly love to see those that question these decisions be placed in the same situation, with only the knowledge Benteen has, and without benefit of hindsight and see what they would do. Hindsight as to what actually happened is the biggest roadbock I see for determining the commander's on the spot view of events and why certain actions were taken. That and gross historical character adoration. When you invest so much of yourself into a person and that person acts in the manner say as Custer did that day, no matter how they had acted before, one of these off in the Ozone "historians" tend to overlook their heros deficiencies and claim someone else is to blame. No they can't be wrong, because if they are their hero is wrong and that cannot be.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2012 9:02:04 GMT -6
Fred: By your calculations:
1) How much approximate time would elapse between the time that Benteen received the "be quick" message and Benteen's earliest possible arrival on Weir Point of Luce Ridge (in other words a place where Custer in trouble could have been seen heard and action taken), assuming that he had no responsability for packs and no intervention in Reno's troubles?
2) Now assume the message gave him responsability for the packs and he took that to mean just what I outlined in post #30 above?
3) Now sir, lay out if you will these same calculations as history tells us the story unfolded, note, packs, Reno intervention, subsequent movement.
I realize they are approximations, no one can know for sure, but I think they would be enlightening.
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