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Post by wild on Mar 22, 2011 7:42:14 GMT -6
Hi Montrose So who is coming to who This question only arises if we ignore the time lag between dispatch and response of order and try to interpret the 3.34 order by conditions pertaining at 4.20.
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Post by wild on Mar 22, 2011 8:17:06 GMT -6
Hi Fred and at the time of the note-writing, Reno was doing just fine. If Reno is halted and in skirmish line he is actually in crisis.
A skirmish line is a loose formaiton of snipers whose purpose is to screen the main body,discommode the opposition,trip ambushes and such like.Action is usually carried out at long distance. It was never intended for skirmishers to confront the opposition's main force. Skirmishing is just one level above fraternization. The skirmish line as employed by cavalry units operating against the indians was a means of seeing off small bands of hostiles . A loss of 25% can render units ineffective and yet the dismounting of a cavalry unit into skirmish will cost it 25% of it's fire power. The skirmish line is not designed for close quarter fighting.It's natural default dynamic is to fallback on the main force. The skirmish line is too weak to achieve anything. In Reno's case being in skirmish line is bad enough but having been seen to stop and forced to fight on foot gave a huge moral boost and the initiatve to the Indians. He was far from fine Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 22, 2011 14:03:17 GMT -6
Lets take a look at Custer as he wends his way slowly North.What shape is his battalion in? Well morale is rock bottom.The men would have been exhilarated having at last caught the village and were about to go into action against a surprised and unprepared foe.Now they were turning away and heading up into muderious terrain.The officers and experiencd nco's will be asking what is going on. There is now no illusions about the size of the village.3 Miles in extent and the first responders have taken care of Reno allowing the warriors further back to apply paint and round up their Sunday pony. Indians don't have large families.The second and subsequent children do not arrive until the first can run for it's life.Non combatants in an Indian village are old women and nursing mothers and the recently deceased.So Custer has 1500 plus auxhilaries to contend with. Custer's column is at least 1 km long.Probably fragmented by the terrain.And no more than 3 minutes distant from the moblising local defence force.Indians will be closer to Custer than he is to the tail of his column.Not only is the column slow much slower than hoards that will be headed it's way but slow to react.The troops require leadership and order and formations and direction all this takes time and Custer has paraded them within a stone's throw of their foe. And when the hundreds and hundreds pour over the river and head for Custer every single man of the 5 companies knows he is dead.
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on Jun 29, 2011 21:35:15 GMT -6
Thank you Fred, for reply #53.
Carl
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2011 4:47:18 GMT -6
Thank you Fred, for reply #53. Carl, I had to go back and see what you are talking about, but... you are welcome. It is my pleasure. And thank you for your manners. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Dec 10, 2011 12:09:26 GMT -6
I have been reflecting on Benteen's scout. It does not fit in with Custer's command decisions from the divide to first contact. It is a poor call on many levels.
But then I realized the error is in assuming that the scout was meant to reach or see into the LBH valley.
I have previously written facts and assumptions on this, may have to repeat it.
Custer was prepared for a camp along Ash Creek, most likely where the south fork met the main streambed. This was a normal Indian camp site, and in fact had been used a week earlier.
Custer's two messengers show that Custer was looking for intelligence very close to his location, and not 6 miles west in the unseeable LBH valley.
Benteen's mission makes a lot of tactical sense with respect to Ash Creek. It makes little or no sense with LBH valley.
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Post by benteen on Dec 10, 2011 13:25:15 GMT -6
Montrose,
Colonel that is interesting, never thought of that. Will give it some thought. However it will have to wait for now. Army vs Navy in 10, minutes, and priorities are priorities.
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Dec 10, 2011 13:57:36 GMT -6
The Benteen mission must be viewed from experience and knowledge of the times. At the Washita, the villages were camped separately and at a distance from one another. There was no reason to believe-- despite what was seen along the Rosebud-- that this would not occur again. The only intel Custer had as to ground reconnaissance was from atop the Crow's Nest, then again from the top of the divide. Those distances ranged from 11.81 to 13 miles from the LBH valley, and the river itself could not be seen from either, except for a very small stretch.
All Custer-- or anyone else, for that matter-- could see of the terrain south of Reno/Ash Creek was a series of ridgelines, obviously indicating an equal series of valleys. Since Indians were believed to also be coming from that direction, it was unknown if any had infiltrated or were still in any of those valleys. The viewing was indistinct and it could not be determined from either locale how wide or how accommodating any of that terrain was and if any Indians could or did or were inhabiting those valleys.
Indians also liked to camp along the river and since the distance was so great and the river moved so close to tall bluffs south of Ford A, it was impossible to tell if anyone was in that area as well.
Benteen's frustration with his mission was apparent only after he had determined that the several narrow valleys he had descended into from the ridges he had climbed could not have held or accommodated any large number of hostiles.
The Reno Creek areas of June 25, 1876, had to have been chewed up by movement and camping and that had to have been apparent from either viewpoint. It also had to be reasonably apparent that there was no large presence of Indians in that valley.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Dec 11, 2011 6:34:48 GMT -6
I concur with Will and Fred on this. I think they also spotted a small satelite camp on Reno Creek from the Crow's nest along with the main camp at the LBH. Custer had to divide up forces at the time to move down Reno Creek as they were in attack mode going down the creek.
Another tell tale sign is that the Crow and Ree scouts were not way out in front as they would be on a typical march. They were back with the column except for Varnum and a few Rees on the right with Hare and a few Rees on the left of the Reno & Custer columns. Basically Varnum and Hare were watching the main column flanks.
Everything changed when they got past the flats and morass then the Reno attack of the main camp plan came into being. That is when the Rees were sent in with Reno. The rub here is that Benteen should have been notified of something. The fact that Reno and Custer moved on meant that Benteen was relegated to reserve status which may have been what was implied by the part of his order to return to the main trail if he didn't find anything on the left.
bc
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Post by fred on Dec 11, 2011 8:29:32 GMT -6
Britt,
In the move down Reno/Ash, Varnum was on the left, Hare on the right, not the other way around-- small mistake.
Also, I have never been able to find any evidence for a satellite village along the creek. Bruce Liddic brings this up and runs with it in Vanishing Victory like it was fact, but truth be known, there is absolutely no evidence of anything other than the lone tepee and another, partially broken down.
Liddic picked up the story from some turn-of-the-century gibberish written by Charles Brady in a book titled, Indian Fights and Fighters. The problem with this-- like so much else about this battle-- is the follow-up. This is the exact same technique the clown "keogh" employs on the neighboring board: some allusion to some event accepted as fact, then there is no follow-up. "Indians on some bluff..." okay... then what? Brady and Liddic's "60-lodge satellite village" was apparently located in the LBH valley-- by inference-- not far from Ford A. And it was in full retreat, only "a mouthful for Custer’s command." If this were the case, then where did it go? Anything in the LBH valley was only 2 - 4 miles from the main village, while Custer was still 12 miles or better from the LBH valley... then another 2 1/2 to the village. How come every Indian account we read that alludes to the battle's beginning tells us the first the Indians knew of the troops' proximity was when riders came rolling into the village, yelling warnings, only moments before Reno struck?
It is lovely to have all these fanciful theories, but in order for any of them to work, one needs the full follow-through. It's like Kanipe's 50 - 100 warriors sitting atop Reno Hill... OK... then what? Where did they go? How come we hear nothing else of them? If Martini and Custer followed a separate "lodge-pole" trail that swung right, where did it go? Smack into the bluffs? C'mon! You cannot just insert some theory, accept it as fact, and move on without following the whole thing through to some ineluctable conclusion, no evidence available or apparent. That's how these things become distorted and misunderstood in the first place.
No satellite village here... 1 1/2 tepees approximately 1.7 miles from the river. Nothing more; nothing less.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Dec 11, 2011 11:06:13 GMT -6
Benteen was relegated to reserve status which may have been what was implied by the part of his order to return to the main trail if he didn't find anything on the left.
No such order was given or implied. Benteen states over and over again that he was to send word if he found Indians. That in no way implies that he was to return early or just find any damn valley he felt like finding. If you guys can't figure out what VALLEY he was sent to find.....That's your problem. Benteen knows, and flat out said what VALLEY he was EXPECTED to find.
The Scouts have told them what VALLEY the village was in. Custer tried to look into the VALLEY and see the village from the Crows Nest. Indians will be using the VALLEY as an escape route not some coulee or creek that goes the wrong way.
From the Crows nest.......THE VALLEY ......looks closer than it is. That is an easy mistake for Custer to make. You need to remember. When Custer is looking from the Crows Nest, he is not making plans for battle. There is a good possibility that he would be able to go back to the Crows nest later in the day with his HQ group and figure out the plan for the attack the next morning. He has a good idea of the general lay of the land but at that time he probably thought that the Scouts would be able to pinpoint the village during the night. There would be no need to split up the command as early as he did if he had better information.
Rosebud
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Post by rosebud on Dec 11, 2011 11:33:28 GMT -6
Custer's two messengers show that Custer was looking for intelligence very close to his location, and not 6 miles west in the unseeable LBH valley. montrose
Are you sure of this? I seem to recall that these two messengers are sent to tell Benteen to go farther than first expected. This would contradict your assessment. Somehow, Custer knows the VALLEY is farther away. I have always wondered how he found this out? Someone had to tell him. Scouts for sure, but who? Crow scouts?.....Herendeen? probably not......Bouyer? possible.
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Post by bc on Dec 11, 2011 15:26:32 GMT -6
Fred, I don't believe this satelite village was a 60 tipi job either. Just a small encampment of late arriving summer roamers of probably not more than 5 or 6 tepees. The remains of which Thompson talks about when they came to the creek junction. Possibly the same location from which Godfrey heard firing and troops shouting.
Of course everything I say about Reno Creek has to be qualified/discounted because in all my trips to the LBH, I never went up Reno Creek with a paddle. Right now I am basically up Reno Creek without a paddle.
By the way, Benteen also made it quite clear that he was to return to the trail if he didn't find anything. Others have confirmed hearing that part of his order as well. That effectively relegates him to a reserve roll if he does return to the trail. I think Benteen knew this and partly help make him upset over his role in this action. However if he did encounter some NAs to the left or spotted some down in the LBH valley, this his part of a 3 column attack move would have remained and he would have been over covering Reno's left.
bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 11, 2011 16:16:30 GMT -6
"By the way, Benteen also made it quite clear that he was to return to the trail if he didn't find anything. Others have confirmed hearing that part of his order as well."
Really.
1. Who was there to hear that part of the order? Was the order so long that they'd have wandered away for the other parts? Are there other parts of their tale that suggest they could not have been with Benteen?
2. They heard the orders from Custer or his minion or heard it from a third party later?
3. There is no evidence there was a three column attack planned. That probably would have come up at the time Benteen was dispatched, although since the point of Benteen's jaunt might well preclude his presence elsewhere, that's dubious. But the "others" were there for the portion of the orders you want, but not there for that rather key point? If they were there at all.
4. The planned attack by Custer is apparently quite detailed and extensive, given he had not seen the village whatever nor had any clue as to the size against him and absolutely nobody was told about it, although it had to be in play when Benteen was sent away.
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Post by rosebud on Dec 11, 2011 16:19:13 GMT -6
BC
I will agree that he was expected to ....re-join....the command. But know one knew how that would happen. Would Custer and Reno be joining him if he was in the LBH?
There has never been anything about RETURN TO THE TRAIL. Benteen did this on his own and THAT has been stated by MANY.
Why waste Benteen with this when he has Varnum to do the little jobs.......Crazy.
Rosebud
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