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Post by Margaret on Feb 22, 2011 18:36:56 GMT -6
....ok, Billy.... I do have awful problems posting something on this forum, it rarely seems to work first time. I'm trying again with this one to Fred:- Thank you again Fred for your long and interesting post, which has set out your position, and for revealing a little of your book to us all. I don't want to labour this for either of us, so just a few points. I will be saying something [rather odd as usual] on your Curley thread, but as you discount most of his narrative but not all, I'm seeing it the other way around I'm afraid. As for Boyer ''doing a whole lot of talking'' with Custer, again who do I believe, you or Mr Gray? He admits to the 'blatant contradictions' with Curley but chooses to have him going with Boyer and not turning back with the Crows. I know we've all read the book upteen times, but just to make the point again that Gray says on p.353 'Custer was now fully aware of the formidable strength and temper of the Sioux village and of Reno's necessity for taking a defensive position in the timber...'' this as he starts down Cedar Coulee. Now I know this doesn't fit in with yours, so there we have it, or I have it. Him or you? His speed down Reno Creek or yours? Curley with Boyer or gone back.... it goes on, and ultimately it's down to the reader isn't it? Your work is very convincing, fresh and new, or at least a re-working of Gray's. It's the latest, perhaps the most honest and thorough, but there's still quite a turn round to do for those of us looking on, who already have established favourites. It's difficult to shift. .......that the Reno battle unfolded a lot more slowly than the detractors claim, i. e., longer than 10 minutes on the prairie floor. Very few Indians were mounted; they fought on foot; they pulled back; they retreated. They raised tons of smoke and dust, they delayed and delayed… until there were enough of them on horseback.......this I cannot fathom, I've not seen it anywhere and whilst I've not read all the RCOI those I have state lots of mounted Indians in Reno's front. So I don't know where you've got this from. ''The military operates quite differently than the civilian sector. We think differently; we believe in discipline, organization, authority… words I find increasingly anathema in the civilian world of today.''...This sounds too modern to me, it doesn't sound much like the 7th Cav. of 1876. It appears some could barely ride, Custer's family came along for a jaunt, guns that don't work, could they shoot properly? they seem only to have been able to survive once thoroughly entrenched and were evidently lucky to have an officer of Benteen's calibre. Doesn't sound that great an outfit, to be honest, perhaps it's somewhat overrated, and I wonder if you place too much emphasis on these military connections between yourselves in this day and age, and those back then. I'm sorry if this doesn't sit well with the heroics on Last Stand Hill and nearby, but again maybe they just weren't as good as they thought themselves to be. They certainly had to suffer their leader, I would say. I accept you don't have an agenda, and apologies for suggesting that you may have, I know you understand it was merely a question, but I'm surprised you find that paragraph so vexing, that you quoted of Gray's. It's never bothered me or thought it academic bullying, but obviously it's affected your opinion of him greatly. However, you have had a dig at him though, twice. Stating he has ''personal prejudices''. How do I know this as a reader? It makes it sound that you knew him, and it just seems too personal from one author to another, before then accusing him of having 'literary bravado'. This is none of my business, but it's not something I like to see really. Other's might not be so concerned, and agree completely, but for me it just makes it look as though you have a 'chip'. A minor critique, and nothing more. Margaret [thank you for your concern regarding the name, I do appreciate that. It's just the name of a river].
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2011 20:17:30 GMT -6
Margaret,
Here is some more information for you. And by the way, the army of 1876 was not very good... certainly not as good as they would believe.
Red Bear--Ree scout-- They reached the Sioux camp, dismounted, and the firing began. Red Bear said the Sioux were lying down: “At this time no one was riding around on horseback.” 1912 interview; The Arikara Narrative, 123.
Gerard, F.-- “The Indians were to the front and to the left, going up the valley. First I saw one, then 3 or 4, and beyond that probably 40 or 50 coming up the valley.” RCOI, 1879; RCOI, 94.
Porter, H. R.-- When the skirmish line was formed there may have been 50 Indians out front, with about 75-100 fighting the troops there. Porter saw “a good many down the river,” but he could not judge the number. RCOI, 1879; RCOI, 194.
Red Feather-- Oglala-- “The Indians who couldn’t catch their horses went in the woods on the side of the soldiers and shot at them from the side—not the back, [but] from the side.” Scott interview, 19Aug1920; Lakota Recollections, 83.
DeRudio, C., LT-- Indians filtered out of the dust in groups of 3 to 5. DeRudio saw probably 100 to 150 Indians, total, but in small groups. Some came to within 200 to 300 yards to the skirmish line’s front. Soon, the Indians were to the front, left, and rear. The only side the troops were not receiving fire from was the right. RCOI, 1879; RCOI, 314, 316.
Crow King-- Hunkpapa-- The Indians delayed, pulling back, to give the women and children a chance to get away. Other Indians got their horses and when there were enough they attacked Reno’s command. Leavenworth Weekly Times, August 18, 1881, possibly by Frank H. Huston; The Custer Myth, 77.
Low Dog-- Oglala-- “The Indians held their ground to give the women and children time to get out of the way. By this time the herders were driving in the horses….” Leavenworth Weekly Times, by Frank Huston, 18Aug1881; The Custer Myth, 75.
Sitting Bull-- Hunkpapa-- In response to a question of whether or not the warriors retreated when first attacked by Reno, Sitting Bull said, “Oh, we fell back, but it was not what warriors call a retreat; it was to gain time.” NY Herald, 16Nov1877; The Custer Myth, 70.
He Dog-- Oglala-- As Reno approached, the Hunkpapa went out, mostly on foot. He Dog was in the hills trying to get his horse. Many others were there, as well. Camp interview, 13Jul1910; Custer in '76, 206.
Iron Hawk-- Hunkpapa-- “… [W]arriors were running toward the soldiers, and getting on the ponies, and many of the Hunkpapas were gathering in the brush and timber near the place where the soldiers had stopped and got off their horses.” Neihardt interview, 1930; Black Elk Speaks,120.
Black Elk-- Oglala-- He saw the Hunkpapas retreating on foot. Others were still scrambling to get out of the water. “The announcer cried that there was a boy who had gotten killed out there somewhere.” Neihardt interviews 1931; The Sixth Grandfather, 181.
Little Soldier-- Hunkpapa/Yanktonai Sioux-- “First the Indians rode to [the] soldiers holding horses and drove them away to cover. Then [the] warriors attacked the soldiers on foot. [These] soldiers lay down, and others got on [their] knees and others stood. Warriors rode into them.” 1936; Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 175.
(Emil) Red Feather-- Oglala-- “The Indians who couldn’t catch their horses went in the woods on the side of the soldiers and shot at them from the side—not the back, [but] from the side.” 1920; Lakota Recollections of the Custer Fight; 83.
White Bull-- Minneconjou-- Some Indians were on foot, others on horseback. 1932; Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 153.
White Hair On Face-- Hunkpapa-- He fought on foot. 1930; Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 148.
As you can see, many-- maybe even most in the beginning-- were on foot.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Margaret on Feb 23, 2011 11:37:46 GMT -6
Thank you once again for this.
Not something to go to war over, but I don't see much in the above I would regard as conclusive or unequivocal, I feel I could easily pick several holes in some of them.
Wallace's testimony has as much merit I think.... ''a few on foot''.... although this may be a little later.
Very best of luck with your book and the pleasure it will give to so many people I hope... ...time for me to move on for now, so I wish you all well and look forward to talking again, one day.
Margaret [from Helford, England]
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Post by fred on Feb 23, 2011 13:06:38 GMT -6
Margaret,
Actually, for some reason I thought there was a lot more. Maybe when one reads these things consecutively, all together, the impression is different. The bottom line, however, is that if you believe all the Indians came out to greet Reno on their horses, you would be wrong. If you believed the valley fight was only 10 minutes in duration, you would be wrong, despite some of the quotes from some of the participants. There is enough anecdotal and artifactual evidence scattered about and ultimately retrieved to put the lie to that notion, despite all the justifications otherwise. And again, one must deal with the timing issues.
It is in the timing ye shall find the truth! Only by distorting time can one justify other results.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Mar 19, 2011 4:00:45 GMT -6
1) Well... since I have a pretty good idea where this is headed, 2) I will play the game by my rules 3 et al) In 1927, Godfrey told Anders "without mincing words that up to Benteen's death he was the finest type of accomplished cavalry officer that the United States army ever had. He specifically did not except Custer. Best wishes, Fred. 1) Ah, a pre eh? At least it was prior to the event unlike Benteen's were. Mistaken, in fact, but worth a punt. 2) Of course. We have come to expect nothing else. 3 et al) An impressive list of data but it does not answer my question. The answer is in fact, one. I am sure you will have the right name somewhere in your files. The point being made was that whilst Benteen may have had some admirable qualities, as hopefully do most people, he was not some plaster saint and his opinions of the characters of other officers are not handed down from the mountain, written in stone. In fact, his letters generally indicate a man who was an inveterate gossip who liked to dispense whatever dirt he believed he knew about others. So now I'll play by my rules and end this exchange. Sincerely, "Hunk"
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2011 6:10:05 GMT -6
There are no rules
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Mar 19, 2011 10:26:03 GMT -6
Quite, Ranger. But as George Orwell so elegantly put it in Animal Farm, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 20, 2011 5:58:25 GMT -6
My preference "Colt made them equal"
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Mar 20, 2011 6:18:41 GMT -6
My preference "Colt made them equal" There are times when one is tempted to use his persuader ;D ;D
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Post by montrose on Mar 21, 2011 7:29:12 GMT -6
1. Purpose. Discuss Custer's order to Benteen.
2. Situation. Custer created his order after observing the valley fight from 3411. Custer know knew where Reno was, that a large Indian force was fighting Reno, and for the first time had eyes on the main village.
3. The message. "Benteen, Come on. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring Packs. W.W. Cooke PS Brings pacs" So who is coming to who? The intended subject of all actions is Benteen. The message is from Cooke. So Benteen is expected to go to Cooke or Custer. Cooke could be at some intermediate point to deliver follow on orders as the situation in the north developed.
In fact, Keough and his Bn would be the point of Benteen's linkup, where he would receive orders on what Custer wanted him to do after linkup.
4. The messenger. Custer had previously used Cooke, Sharrow, and Voss as messengers. He had other messengers available who spoke English, including two from Reno's staff. The selection of Martini shows that the message was regarded as simple and routine. A more complicated plan on Custer's part would lead to a more competent messenger.
5. Martini's errors. Martini took his job literally. He delivered his message and stated that the Indians were skedaddling, a very false message. He failed to tell Benteen of the split, of Reno's fight in the valley, and that Custer had continued north after 3411. He failed to tell Benteen what Custer's intentions were. His situational awareness was so weak that he didn't know his horse had been shot.
Messengers are a way to update situational awareness between separated elements. Custer's messengers to Benteen not just provided follow on reconnaissance objectives, but also brought back current intelligence from the scouting force. It is this situational awareness that led to Sharrow going to Benteen, vice Martini.
6. Terrain and timing. The message was sent from the bluffs. This means that Benteen was expected to go at least to where the order was written. Timing is important here, Benteen would need guidance before he reached Custer's split. Martini did reach Benteen in time, but failed to tell Benteen of the split. Some scouts had to show Benteen the way.
7. Discussion. Now back to the theme of this thread. How do the above factors relate to the theory that Custer ordered Benteen to reinforce Reno.
a. The message. The obvious is that the order makes no mention of Reno.
b. Custer. Custer had a long history of short direct orders to subordinates. He expected obedience and had a hot temper with anyone questioning or deviating from his orders. If he wanted Benteen in the valley, he would have said so.
c. Tactical situation. From Custer's perspective, Reno was holding. Custer was the one in position to support Reno, and he chose not to.
d. The missing order. If Custer had wanted Benteen to go to Reno, there would be a second order for Reno. Custer would tell Reno where he was and what he was doing. He would give Reno orders on what to do with his two battalion force. He would also give orders on the disposition of the trains. Given the note, the trains would go where Benteen went. So the trains were intended for Reno.
e. Timing. It is probable that Martini was sent to reach Benteen before he hit the split. The timing lines up with an intent to catch Benteen to make sure he took the right fork.
f. Benteen's decision point. Benteen had to make a choice at the split. From the split area, he would not be able to see either Custer or Reno. He also would not be able to see the village, the Indians fighting Reno, the pony herds, the noncombatants and the fords. Without guidance, he most likely would follow the sounds of gunfire to the left.
This reinforces the timing issue. Custer needed to get a messenger to Benteen to prevent him from entering the valley.
If Benteen did enter the valley, this doesn't save the valley fight. Aforce of several hundred Indians had moved past Reno to the West. They had cut him off from Ford A. Benteen would have met this force head on. This fight would occur1-2 miles from Reno.
At best Reno retreats with less casualties. But now there will be a huge gap between Reno and Benteen, with no way to communicate. Custer gets more time to operate in the north. There is a chance that CUster survives as the Indians destroy Reno, Benteen, and McDougall. An Indian fielders choice.
f. Custer's post order actions. The implication of the reinforce Reno theory is that Custer expected no help in the north. So now all of Custer's actions in the north are using only his 5 companies. Custer's actions in the north are very unsound from this point of view.
He failed to mass his forces anywhere. He failed to cross the river, when he had sufficient strength to do so. He dithered, and scattered his forces all over the place. The most critical point: when time was pressing, he dawdled.
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Post by montrose on Mar 21, 2011 15:42:57 GMT -6
Previous post finally showed a few hours after I posted it. It is showing on the thread, but not under new posts. Weird.
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Post by wild on Mar 21, 2011 16:36:06 GMT -6
Montrose, So who is coming to who The order was redundant by the time Benteen reached Reno. Try writing the order as per the situation an hour later.
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Post by montrose on Mar 21, 2011 17:40:16 GMT -6
Wild,
Thanks for answering. I think many of my posts pass unseen.
Wild wrote, "So who is coming to who The order was redundant by the time Benteen reached Reno. Try writing the order as per the situation an hour later. "
I am confused here. Whatever happened an hour later can not influence Custer/Cooke; outside of what they expected the situation to be as they wrote the order.
Custer expected the valley fight to stay in the valley. Reno being defeated still stays in a valley scenario. Reno being defeated and retreating back across the river and into Benteen's approach march was not even possible in Custer's mind.
As for Custer being able to rewrite the order an hour later: I would like to use the term bollocks, though it may be more offensive on the other side of the pond. Picked it up from my wife, who is from South Shields.
If Custer wanted to influence actions on his backtrail, he would position himself or a command element to execute command and control. He did not. So who is going to write an order an hour later? Custer at Ford D? What is the line of sight from Ford D to Reno's timber, Ford A, Reno's crossing point, the morass, Reno Hill, etc? CUster placed himself in a position where he had no clueof what was going on in the south. Further, he had no ability to deliver an order in time to effect any decision in the south.
So an hour later, the regimental commander placed himself in a situation where he could only command and control two companies out of twelve. I do not understand your comment.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by zekesgirl on Mar 21, 2011 18:43:30 GMT -6
William, none of your posts go unseen by me. You are one of the most concise posters here and I look forward to each post.
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Post by fred on Mar 21, 2011 19:08:36 GMT -6
I agree with "zekesgirl."
Darkcloud has brought up some very good points regarding this note business and now "montrose" has followed through with more. Not a lot need be read into simple words. The name, "Reno," is conspicuously absent and Benteen has no idea Reno and Custer are not together. Martini offers no information; Benteen can hardly understand the man anyway; and if Custer and/or Cooke wanted the messenger to impart additional information, they would have sent someone else... Kanipe for instance... of course he was no longer available!
Despite Custer's errors once past 3,411, he knew Benteen would act in the proper fashion and at the time of the note-writing, Reno was doing just fine. It wasn't until some 42 minutes later when Custer found out about Reno's difficulties and even then he had no idea of the extent. Not that it mattered... time was wasting, Indians were leaving, Custer realized he needed more men... and he knew Benteen was coming. And Benteen was, as were the packs.
To me, the notion that the note was meant for Benteen to head for Reno, or relieve Reno, is preposterous. Again, when it was written, Reno was doing precisely what Custer wanted and now it was Custer's turn... with Benteen as his reinforcement.
Best wishes, Fred.
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