It's something that Benteen gets too little credit for. He could have thrown a fit and threatened and bullied officers, but he had the gift of command and presence and he brought everyone back under the chain of command and to the same page. Weir could have been arrested and there could have been a real issue with Reno if anyone had tried to overturn him. It wasn't by the book but it worked to desired end.
Given how pissed he'd be to find everything he'd been told was void, I think he comes across as a good guy to have about. Command presence and that at 4 in the morning or in the afternoon.
".. all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed...." T.Jefferson, Declaration of Independence
Well said I agree completly. In addition I have read where some of the troopers said it was Benteens courage and coolness under fire that inspired them, and basicaly credit him with saving their lives
Good decisive leadership does not require bullying or threatening behavior. Benteen's behavior cannot stand alone and must be spun to give the appearance of effectiveness.
Dan: I think you make an excellent point in your last sentence. We by now are all familiar with post traumatic stress, which we take and rightly so to mean well after the event. There is also something, immediate post traumatic stress, that I believe should be considered, from which no human, be he ever so strong otherwise, is immune.
Yes Colonel, I would think that as your talking to someone and their head blows up like a watermelon with brain matter splashing in your face would rattle anyone. I had always thought that that was to blame for the way he left the timber (Not his decision to leave) but I'm not so sure anymore.
Dark Cloud has always remained firm in his belief that no one can show how it could have been done better, truth is no one has. It may very well be possible that Reno knew he would lose some men by racing up the hill but felt he would lose more by some slow by the book retrograde.
I know that Benteen didnt have his men dig in and had the most casualties, but are you saying Reno ordered him to do it and he flat out refused, he disobeyed an order?
Richard: Good decisive leadership requires what it requires. In the ideal you are correct. On the battlefield it can and sometimes is a horse of an entirely different color. I refer you to Pork Chop Hill.
Refusal to dig in, greatest number of casualties. A reference and an accessment of available natural cover and concealment if you please. Not doubting, but when an experienced commander does not do something, that we in a latter day think he should have there is often a reason, that perhaps we do not see.
I think Reno made the least worst of all possible decisions.
Absolutely agree.
It was awful, but nobody has yet shown how a better result would have been obtained. A better result being less casualties on the way to Reno Hill. If we cannot do it, knowing far more about terrain available than Reno could, it's pointlessly harsh to dump on him.
It has been, what, DC? five years? six? since you first threw that up on the boards? I have yet to figure out how to answer... so think about Reno. He didn't have five or six years.
I recall reading an Indian "account" that the Indians were reluctant to enter the timber because of the close proximity/how dangerous it was.
Some Indians may have claimed that... and who knows why. That is then taken by writers and historians looking for someone to blame, and suddenly it becomes history. What did Carlo DeRudio have to say when he tried to retrieve his company's guidon? Twenty, thirty, forty Indians entering the woods to chase him...? I would bet you he exaggerated the numbers... but not the intent. I doubt many Indians were afraid to do much of anything that day. Wooden Leg and Black Elk would have agreed.
No one could do it better: There are ways, ways in the book, to disengage from a hostile force. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they do not. Considering the numbers arayed against him. Considering that the hostiles had already worked his flank, it is problematic at best if any of the by the book ways would have sufficed, and would even be considered. In the absence of any evidence of misconduct, or maleficence, the nod must go to the commander's decision made on the scene. Therefore if run like hell was his decision, then history must accept it was the best decision under the circumstances, no matter how reluctantly.
Last Edit: May 2, 2012 13:58:35 GMT -6 by quincannon
Dan are you saying Reno ordered him to do it and he flat out refused, he disobeyed an order? I am but if you asked me chapter and verse I don't have it, just working from memory.So I'm grateful that Fred has confirmed what I posted.[very gallant of Fred him being gererally on the opposite side] It is very significant in that it shows that he took no notice of Reno's authority and undermines the arguement that he was compelled to halt when he met a superior officer.
Colonel A troop and two officers went missing on Benteen's watch.Vanished off into the blue yonder.And there is lots of yonder in Montana.Whatever style of leadership Benteen was applying it was slow to kick in.
Refusal to dig in, greatest number of casualties. A reference and an accessment of available natural cover and concealment if you pleaseThe number of casualties should indicate quality of cover available. And as a reference can I refer you to Fred's confirmation?
Benteen had two options ie dig in or go to Custer.He did neither. Best Wishes
No, he had a third option, that was to support a badly beaten battalion. I believe that if he didnt make that decision that not only Custer but the entire 7th Cavalry would have been wiped out.
As to the other point I honestly didnt know that. I certainly take yours and Capt Freds word on it. It doesnt change my opinion that he was the finest officer in the field that day but I honestly didnt know that. Guess that shows the difference between a reader of this engagement and a student of it.
Richard: You have quite enough on your plate at the moment, giving Clair a lesson in the United States Constitution, on which by the way you are on very firm ground. Firm ground at least in theory and is that not always the way that particular document is discussed. So I will wait until you can fully reasearch your answer. Like Dan, I do not doubt your statement, not Fred's reinforcement of it. But that did not answer my inquiry. Why did he disobey the order to dig in? That is the question, not that he disobeyed. Fred said he admitted it I presume at the RCOI under oath. He ran the risk of charges, so it seems to me he must have had a pretty good reason for his action. If not a pretty good reason, a reason none the less. Further for your statement about caualties to be connected with not digging in you must show that those casualties were incurred strictly during defensive operations. I seem to recall Company H, led by Benteen participated in a rather spirited counterattack during the 26th of June.
So this is not an indictment or post of disbelief. This is a post of inquiry as to why. Now I will go further if the reason why cannot be determined, we must fall back upon what I said about Reno's retreat from the timber - In the absence of Misconduct or maleficence the nod of good judgment must go to the commander on the scene, and this too must be the virdict of history regardless of palatability.
Benteen had an awkward position in the line, as anyone who's stood on the field would know. He also, after he'd had his company performing various duties, did not have shovels or tools to claw into the ground. Making a command decision about whether to let the guys sleep or spend the night rather pointlessly trying to dig in, he chose the former. He chatted about this in print, so it's no big secret, and it was no big problem till the next day when they had to drive a few Indians back.
Nobody wandered off on Benteen's watch; the officer Weir left the impression they had Reno's permission to go forward, and Edgerly followed with his company. They had asked the ranking officer as far as Benteen knew at the time, and in any case he'd completed his mission and the battalions had no more relevance. There's no reason except Wild's pettiness to try and make a scandal out of this. Nobody there involved or those selected to review the battle found Benteen derelict in any manner.
".. all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed...." T.Jefferson, Declaration of Independence