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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 10, 2011 9:32:49 GMT -6
Did the Indians try to set fire to the woods to chase Reno and his Troopers out into the open, acording to Apollo Custer on you tube, the Indians could not force Reno out of the woods so they tried to smoke him out. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jun 10, 2011 11:07:00 GMT -6
Did the Indians try to set fire to the woods to chase Reno and his Troopers out into the open, acording to Apollo Custer on you tube, the Indians could not force Reno out of the woods so they tried to smoke him out. I don't know who Apollo Custer is, but if that is what he claimed, I-- personally-- think it is a crock. Yes... they did attempt to set fire to the timber, but the Indians had no problem chasing Reno from the timber area. I tend to doubt that the firing of the timber had much of an affect... Reno wasn't in there that long... and the sheer numbers of warriors, as well as where they were and the size of the area compared to the number of men he had to defend it, is what forced Reno from the woods. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 10, 2011 14:35:26 GMT -6
Yes Fred, I think you are right, If you have a spare hour go to you tube and type in apollo custer or battle of the little big horn and the results will come up, I have to give it to the guy he takes you over all the various places with his camcorder and narates well. Regards Yan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2011 6:21:13 GMT -6
Fred he is called Custer Apollo, sorry, I just checked it and all the Videos are still there, I wanted to start watching them all over again but I have a busy day. it would be nice if some one with more knowladge then me, check out this mans work and be able to tell if he is correct or not. Regards Ian.
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Post by revmike on Jun 20, 2011 20:52:31 GMT -6
The real fact is, Reno's orders were to attack the village, not set up a skirmish line and taunt the inhabitants from 400 yards away.
With the element of surprise, Reno was attacking a string of villages that were unaware of his presence. The warriors for the most part were unprepared and unarmed. The women were going about their routine. Had Reno executed his orders, he might well have been able to inflict a great deal of casualties and confusion on the Natives and likely driven the non combatants into Custer's hands -- thereby delivering a victory, or possibly a stalemate. Custer riding in from the East may have sealed the crisis for the Natives who would have been trying to organize to fight Reno. Most accounts place Custer's appearance from the East as a second surprise.
The first failure of the battle was Reno's failure to carry out the attack, the second was Reno's retreat after taking only one KIA.
Custer's troops' appearance on the battlefield from the East would have been a surprise even against the Natives squaring off with Reno.
Custer's tactics of dividing his command also would have forced the Natives to split their forces, had they reacted to Custer quickly enough, otherwise Custer would have flanked the Native warriors in the manner Reno was concerned about being flanked.
Custer's original plan was probably fairly sound. The biggest problem was his failure to communicate the plan, which may have been changing anyway, and possibly allowing Reno to command the initial attack on the village.
-Rev
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2011 21:42:58 GMT -6
Have you met Keogh? He gets most of his military knowledge from comic books too.
All warfare is simple, but in warfare the simple is hard and your adversary always has a vote. Commit that to your diary sir, and your memory.
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Post by fred on Jun 21, 2011 4:16:11 GMT -6
Reverend Mike, it seems to me that instead of cherry-picking narratives, you are cherry-picking events.
Who says the Indians knew Custer or the cavalry were anywhere near the camp? Crook was some 20 or more miles away when they spotted him and even then they took an overnight hike to get to him. None of Little Wolf's warriors-- who did see the command in the Rosebud valley-- ever thought enough to tell anyone, and certainly not until after most of the fracas was over.
The fact of the matter is that the Indians screwed up... pure and simple. They watched Gibbon head downstream along the Yellowstone and they pulled in their scouts... mistake. They still had scouts tailing Crook when Custer struck, so why wouldn't they have been better prepared?
To say they were surprised when Reno began his move is correct; to say they knew Custer was near-- prior to Reno's move-- is not.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 21, 2011 4:24:45 GMT -6
I don't know about you guys, but I would not of enjoyed being in Reno's Battalion if he charged head long into a village of that size, surprised or not I would not like to count the white grave markers spread all over that valley floor. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 21, 2011 8:58:37 GMT -6
Ian: I don't think Reno liked being in Reno's Battalion either. Had it only been one circle Reno would have probably gotten away with it. The fact that the various circles were layered for a couple of miles meant that the shock effect of the attack would disipate, and Reno would have found himself in an even worse position that what actually happened. I don't think he could have extracted many from that situation. Maybe none. So I suppose what happened was actually a blessing stained by blood.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 22, 2011 3:17:10 GMT -6
Thanks Quincannon, your right maybe one circle and out may have caused some panic, and what I have read on this site about some warriors being asleep may have help him achive this, I dont know if I am old fashioned or not, but if you take a way a Cavalrymans sabre you rob him of what is a major weapon in his arsenal, if his men were armed with sabres they could have charged through the villiage causing mayhem and got to a safe place still mounted and then made his next move, stopping and forming a skirmish line robs the cavalry of there most vital component mobility, I know they were trained to fight like Dragoons, but against a light and moblie force such as the Indians it was only a matter of time before they out flanked him. Regards Ian.
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Post by michaelguth on Feb 15, 2012 20:25:45 GMT -6
The subject of whether Reno disobeyed orders came up on another forum. After all, its hard to be the hero of the LBH if you were a coward who disobeyed orders. I became interested in LBH after buying Roger Darling's 1990 book 'A Sad and Terrible Blunder,' which had been 'banned' from sale at the LBH Visitor Center.
In chapter 11 of this book Darling presents field research with a chronological presentation of testimony regarding what Custer knew at the time that Reno was sent, 'to move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent, and to charge afterward.'
His conclusion is that 'the basic misunderstanding in Custer literature as to Custer's actions at this moment rests on the mistaken assumption that Custer ordered Reno to attack the 'village'. This is traditionally and conveniently translated into meaning that vast Indian village stretching three miles along the distant river. But Custer did not know such a village was there.....the only village now on Custer's mind was that small lone tepee village band fleeing down Reno Creek.
I found Darling's chronology and observations to be convincing. Other posts on this site seem to confirm the dfficulties in seeing the main Indian encampment from either the Crow's nest or even the Reno battlefield.
But Darling's work is old. I wondered if later historians had disputed, refuted or accepted Darling's chronology/theory/commentary and what conclusions members of this group might have reached.
Mike Guth
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Post by fred on Feb 15, 2012 20:49:04 GMT -6
Mike,
I am one of the few staunch defenders of Reno's actions up to the time he retreated from the timber. I also have that Darling book, but have not read it. I have read his Benteen's Scout-to-the-Left, and have found his work to be fairly credible, except for his various timing scenarios.
Darling is correct about Custer's orders, and if the site you are referring to is the de facto Little Big Horn Associates site, then I have had this battle out with both KY Hussar (Clair Conzelman) and the site's so-called moderator, a clown named "keogh." The former operates in fantasyland much of the time... though he is an honest man; the latter is prone to lies, distortion, and preconceived notions beyond reason. However, you did not make that post to read my diatribes about others... so I apologize for that in advance.
Again, since I have not read this particular Darling work, I cannot comment on his chronology, but he is correct regarding anyone's inability to actually see the village, especially from the Crow's Nest. The determining factor in various opinions of participants-- prior to the fight-- of the village size comes more from the signs read along the way than to any actual views of the camp. This is true even as Reno's command rode down the LBH valley, protruding timber and rising dust obscuring much of what lay beyond.
In fact, it is my opinion the first people who understood the full scope of the village's size-- and this includes its density, something almost everyone overlooks-- were Tom Weir and Fred Benteen when they stood atop Weir Point. I do not believe Custer-- from his various perches-- ever saw the full extent of what he was facing, other than the camp's length, which counts neither its width (not great) nor density.
While I cannot quote specifics of Darling's book, or even tell you what his opinion of Reno was (or is), in my opinion Reno followed his orders quite well and handled his 3-company battalion as competently as anyone could wish, up to the time he ordered retreat. In fact, I (personally) do not even take issue with his decision to leave the timber, or his timing in doing so. My issue with Reno lies solely with his method of departure and then some of his actions once atop the hill. Even the retreat, however, can be debated for no one really knows if the "textbook" would have provided better results. This is frequently brought out by a contributor here named Dark Cloud. And he is absolutely correct: we can prove nothing.
If you care to elucidate some of Darling's findings or opinions, I could comment further. Unfortunately, my time is somewhat limited and I need to finish up the Moore book on the valley fight (which I find loaded with errors... basic errors), then finish up Kuhlman, and then maybe I will tackle the Darling work.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 15, 2012 20:50:19 GMT -6
It's difficult to believe that Custer's only concern was a one lodge party on the run. They'd been following the trail of a much larger group - in fact, were still on it - and if anything the assumption would be that the smaller party would be heading for the protection of the larger. Custer knew such a village was in the vicinity, had to know it, even without the scouts telling him, as they had. The huge herd and fire smoke would have been notable the closer they got, just as the utter lack of smoke had erased the need for searching Tullochs.
Custer's orders make no sense if he's sending off Reno to attack a moving group who might end up anywhere. Then what? Write when you have time? Where would Custer be? I would hope Custer knew Reno would assume he'd be doing something constructive to work with Reno's attack, and the need for long term instruction wasn't necessary.
It's not difficult, but impossible to see the village proper from the CN, but the huge herd was apparent ("Look for worms on the grass....."). On Reno Hill you could see parts of the herd and village the existence of which had been made clear by the inhabitants' greetings. But groupings of thousands of people and tens of thousands of horses would be clear in that area blocked by - but west of - the bluffs. But if the group you order to attack does so, and the village is so many miles or whatever long, and there is no crossing for miles on the east bank or none at all, this is not a competent decision.
Not knowing the land and therefore his ability to support, or the exact layout and mindset of the enemy groupings, still leaves the orders to Reno to be a bad error by Custer, who was assuming a lot based on no observation by an officer or anyone as yet. Only Benteen checked the land and situation before committing troops to battle; Reno had no choice.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2012 20:54:34 GMT -6
Tell me something Mike. When you have been following a trail that was up to a mile wide in places, with other trails converging into it from time to time, you or Darling or both are telling me he sent Reno after a few Indians fleeing from the lone tepee. Hogwash.
Reno was not a coward, and whether he was drunk has never been proven, and just what order did he disobey. In the United States Army when someone gives you command, even though it may be command of a detail to clean the latrine, they expect you to command. Reno was in command. He made command decisions. In the absence of orders he exercised his judgment and did what he thought proper. Can you furnish I shred of evidence to say he did not act in the manner expected of a commander in the field. You can be critical of execution, but not of his honor or sense of duty.
Welcome to this merry band of patriots and fortune tellers.
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Post by fred on Feb 15, 2012 21:10:30 GMT -6
Wow! A flurry of activity. What did I miss?
I did not take the business about the "small village" or the single tepee as the rationale behind Custer's orders. The other site began a thread about a "satellite village," and as usual, "keogh" chimed in distorting everything and pulling quotes completely out of context. In addition, it seems his English reading skills are severely lacking. The tepee-and-a-half the command stumbled upon were the remnants of the very large village that had been camped along Reno Creek during the Crook fight on the Rosebud.
By the time Custer reached the lone tepee site, only a fool would believe there was no camp, or only a small camp downstream on the LBH. I do not believe Custer was that ignorant. Custer sent no one to chase a small band; he sent a three-company battalion downstream to engage the warriors, with the full intent of following up and supporting Reno, the full idea that was the village Reno would be tackling.
Was it ill-conceived? Damn right, but at this stage of the commitment, Custer had little choice. By moving up Davis Creek and crossing the divide, he had cast his lot. He had been spotted and the village would have been warned... though from what we know today, the Indians' ideas of early warning procedures were as competent as Custer's ideas of village size and location.
Best wishes, Fred.
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