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Post by wild on May 2, 2012 22:13:22 GMT -6
Dan By supporting Reno,Benteen became part of the defeat himself.If you want to win you support the attacking units.Or at least having accepted defeat you put a good defence in position. Best Wishes
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Post by wild on May 2, 2012 22:20:31 GMT -6
Colonel Why did he disobey the order to dig in? How many judgement calls does this soldier get per battle?
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Post by elkslayer on May 2, 2012 22:26:08 GMT -6
I recall reading an Indian "account" that the Indians were reluctant to enter the timber because of the close proximity/how dangerous it was. I read something similiar from one of the scouts...Herendeen. His horse stepped in a hole during the retreat, threw him, and ran off. He ran straight for the timber since due to past experience he knew the Sioux reluctance to charge into the woods.(Terrible Glory) Jim
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Post by quincannon on May 2, 2012 23:10:32 GMT -6
Richard: As many as he needs.
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Post by quincannon on May 2, 2012 23:24:30 GMT -6
Jim: I am going to admit something here to you that pains me to say, but in honesty I must. I don't know jack about Little Bighorn. Well maybe I know Jill, but not Jack. That is to say I don't know the in depth detail the way a Fred or DC, Billy, AZ and many of the others do. Now Jim Donovan wrote Terrible Glory, and I enjoyed it but if he said Little Elk Piss In His Pants carried a double barreled tomahawk I would be hard pressed to dispute him. Jim Donovan though has written a new book on a subject that I know one hell of a lot about, and I will form an opinion of Donovan's research, and thus the key to the step in the hole - afraid of the woods - fire in the teepee caused by an arsonist in Company M stuff down as far as my confidence in his work goes
Other authors are very easy. When Ambrose tells you that the 115th Infantry Regiment was the first wave at Omaha, you know it is a damned lie, on the part of a plagerist. With Donovan I feel he is OK but when I read his Alamo book I will know better and be able to render an opinion.
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Post by wild on May 3, 2012 6:05:43 GMT -6
Colonel I recall you writing that the command culture in the 7th was the pits. Benteen's behavior exemplified this culture. His passiveness and indifference is obvious in that day's work. Failure to take as ordered, direction of the packs.Failure to bring forward ammo.Withdrawing nearly 200 men and reserve ammo from the offensive and making no attempt to inform Custer.Losing 40 men and two officers.His Hare Krishna like advance.Disregarding Reno's orders. None of his actions will stand on their own merit but need to be spun and excused. Benteen has a case to answer. Best Wishes
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Post by fred on May 3, 2012 6:24:56 GMT -6
He ran straight for the timber since due to past experience he knew the Sioux reluctance to charge into the woods. Would you? I doubt anybody with half a brain would ever charge blindly into a concealed area like the woods. That doesn't mean they wouldn't infiltrate on foot. Horses in the woods are rather like tanks in a city. Why would you do that? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 3, 2012 6:28:45 GMT -6
Benteen was not ordered to bring ammunition. The offensive should be taking place on the village side of the river not backing away from it. Custer was on defense just like Reno in my opinion. I give Custer the benefit of the doubt that he was attempting to position himself for an offensive action but I don't see an actual offensive move rather he was hit hard and went on defense without being able to have his battalion together in support of each other.
Wild don't you find it odd that his immediate command is separated and did not unite yet you expect that other commands could unite with Custer?
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Post by fred on May 3, 2012 6:44:54 GMT -6
I give Custer the benefit of the doubt that he was attempting to position himself for an offensive action but I don't see an actual offensive move rather he was hit hard and went on defense without being able to have his battalion together in support of each other. Absolutely! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on May 3, 2012 6:51:00 GMT -6
AZ Agreed he was not ordered to bring forward the ammo but was that not the logical thing to do when he saw the condition of Reno's men? Benteen should be judged by what he knew.He knew nothing of Custer's situation and should have at least tried to open communication with him.But as I say at best he was passive. I do not expect Benteen to unite with Custer.I expect that he prosecute his orders as far as was feasible in an aggressive spirit. Regards
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 3, 2012 6:58:29 GMT -6
It looks like Custer and his Battalion just got whittled down, he had (when his Battalion left Cedar Coulee) five Companies, this got split, when Keogh was left around Calhoun ridge, Custer then went north with two Companies, this was then cut down to one Company when E Coy got over run, so when Custer and his remaining command took up position on the slope of LSH, he was left with one Company and a few survivors from Keogh, at this time the Indian strength had swelled and they then proceeded to surrounded the Troopers and the bloody shambles began.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 3, 2012 8:23:00 GMT -6
AZ Agreed he was not ordered to bring forward the ammo but was that not the logical thing to do when he saw the condition of Reno's men? Benteen should be judged by what he knew.He knew nothing of Custer's situation and should have at least tried to open communication with him.But as I say at best he was passive. I do not expect Benteen to unite with Custer.I expect that he prosecute his orders as far as was feasible in an aggressive spirit. Regards I think Benteen and everyone else believed Custer could take of himself whereas he saw Reno's battalion as the focus of an attack and in a less than desirable condition. I think Benteen believed he had time to do both that is fix the disorganized group of soldiers, take care of the wounded, and bring up the packs. At that point he could move on. In hindsight he realized what was happening. That leads to the what if I had done something different which is good and the reason to look at decision making. Some argue that Reno could have held out for many hours in the timber. Why would they think any less of Custer?
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2012 8:37:02 GMT -6
You know I can't get all excited about this Reno/Benteen, meet on the hill, stop-don't stop business. To me it is very straightforward. Benteen comes upon Reno in a trickbag. He realizes that he must render aid. He is not aware of any immediate danger Custer is in (if in fact Custer at that very time was not beyond help). He stops. He renders both tactical and logistical aid to Reno and everyone knows the rest of the story. Benteen used his best judgment. He did what he thought to be right. There are those that disagree with that judgment. There are those that agree. I personally agree with it. It seems that others do to. To those that do not, I suspect short of going to his grave, digging him up and placing him before courts martial for conduct unbecoming a corpse, there is not much more you can do but retain your adverse opinion of the man. That you are certainly entitled to do, but at the same time, don't expect my positive opinion of the man's actions to change either.
Now lets turn it around. Are there any of you out there that Benteen was capable of using his judgment to deliberately and with malice do what he knew to be wrong. If so. Say so. Then we can have an argument based upon the moralty of the issue.
And that ladies and gentlemen is my judgment of the matter. I hope those that may disagree with it will not find cause to dig me up someday and bring me before charges of- defense of what they believe indefensible.
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Post by wild on May 3, 2012 8:50:00 GMT -6
AZ I think Benteen and everyone else believed Custer could take of himself You thought that Benteen thought----.Sorry AZ but that sort of reasoning is wooly to say the least. Also it was not for Benteen to make assumptions regarding the tactical situation without making some small effort to investigate beyond his immediate surroundings.
Some argue that Reno could have held out for many hours in the timber. Why would they think any less of Custer? Are you suggesting that Benteen should have made tactical decision based on a projected timeline for an action with which he was not familiar for a situation of which he had no knowledge. Come on AZ you can do better than that. Best Wishes
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2012 8:57:20 GMT -6
Making tactical assumptions: Richard you should no better than that. Commander's are paid to make tactical assumptions. A commander's life on the battlefield revolves around nothing else but making those assumptions. Now, no one says you have to agree with those assumptions. But then again you were not in his situation. You were not confronted with the same circumstances. If you are looking for someone to reinforce your views that Benteen was wrong you will find plenty out there, but when you find someone who thinks they were right you must respect their arguments in the same degree you wish to have your own respected.
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