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Post by Dark Cloud on May 3, 2012 9:03:56 GMT -6
And he's done better than that, but you deserve no more. That everyone thought Custer could take care of himself is not birthed in air. There are numerous accounts and testimonies to it which you have referenced in the past yourself and therefore cannot revert to your normal move at this time: demand evidence. It's in the RCOI and elsewhere and you can look it up if, for some reason, you claim not to believe it. You know it's true and are just pretending to be a unconstructive pain.
Reno was the commander on the field; you cannot keep pretending Benteen was. None of your complaints found purchase when the Army looked into the fiasco. None.
When two combat vets level you, a clerk who was never in combat, where do you get the basis for correcting them? When three? Benteen did nothing wrong, and in fact during this battle supported his superior and the men in a manner to resolve issues born in a previous firefight and the retreat from it. Even those that hate Benteen (or, rather, have to if they adore Custer) found nothing, find nothing, to condemn him with here.
No betrayal, no incompetence, no rancid attempt to elevate betrayals and incompetence into something glorious. The guy did the best he could to make sure everyone survived. Your goal to denigrate Benteen has no ballast and does nothing more than illustrate my observations about your motives for years. There simply MUST be something awful. Otherwise, all these Irish fiascos, 'battles' and conflicts must be rather unique in history by the myriad levels of betrayals and slanders and treasons. Yes.
This is a petty and nauseating attempt to slime Benteen. I don't know who can argue with that given how Wild slithers about trying to find an issue that might find purchase among those new to his devices.
And, no soldier myself but fairly well read in this, I find no actual basis for the assumption Benteen's mission from Custer was perpetual till he himself presented before Custer and was personally relieved of that duty. Aside from making no real sense in theory it certainly makes no sense at all from what we can gather was the situation on the ground presented to Reno and Benteen.
It's like Custer was daring his command to succeed.
Nobody who served with Benteen there or later or before thought of his actions as wild presents and contends. Nobody above him felt that. He cheerfully chatted up his potential issues at the RCOI and dragged red meat in front of the court. He never seems to have tried to hide anything potentially damning, and even provided help to potential enemies by claiming to have disobeyed orders. NOBODY took issue with him.
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Post by wild on May 3, 2012 9:15:12 GMT -6
It's the debate that's important.It is rare to have anyone conceed the issue and I would not expect any of my friends on the contrary side to change their positive views of our hero. For myself the satisfaction is in not having anything I'v posted rebutted. Best Wishes
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 3, 2012 9:20:01 GMT -6
Everything was rebutted. No, the debate isn't important unless there is a relevant issue. I understand from reading and several here understand from doing it and holding the responsibility in combat that American officers have to make command decisions on the ground and absent actual fact or evidence you don't damn them in hindsight. Or, you know, at all.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 3, 2012 9:27:15 GMT -6
People can pick holes in the whole Reno/Benteen scenario:
Did Reno lose control and panic (he did only lose one man on the skirmish line) Was Benteen slow (he may have took a bit of time watering his horses) But we can all sit here in hindsight and say this was wrong, he should have done this and that, that’s what a forums for in my opinion, but Benteen had to stop and see what the score was with Reno, he could have not rode by and waved his hat and say ‘’looks like you boys have had it rough, I’ll see you later Custer has sent me a note’’, he had to stop and assess the situation along with Reno, it seems prudent to try and unite the three separate units together (Reno’s Bn, Benteen’s Bn and the pack train) before making a move North, Weir may have speeded things up by moving out along with his orderly closely followed by the rest of D Coy, but you have to treat the wounded men and get organised before you plan your next move.
Reno did not know how long he could have lasted in the timber, if the Indians encircled him he would have no escape route, the whole place could have been crawling with warriors if he stayed for another 15/20 minutes, so we don’t actually know what Reno saw coming across the valley towards him.
Benteen had to stop at Reno hill, he had no choice in my view, before he even got to Reno he had to water his horses, the day was really hot and they had just been scouting over rough terrain.
The only real argument in my mind is when they got to Weir point, what do they do next, form Skirmish lines, make Weir a defensible position and wait for the rest of the command to reach them, charge down to Calhoun guns a blazing, we have all got our opinions over what they could have done on Weir point, going on what they saw they had to make a judgement call and the one they made was ‘’as Benteen said’’ this is a hell of a place to fight Indians, they moved back.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 3, 2012 10:50:42 GMT -6
I think Benteen and everyone else believed Custer could take of himself You thought that Benteen thought----.Sorry AZ but that sort of reasoning is wooly to say the least. Also it was not for Benteen to make assumptions regarding the tactical situation without making some small effort to investigate beyond his immediate surroundings.
Wild Benteen states in testimony what he thought so I am not sure of your comment. He states Custer could take care of himself.
Some argue that Reno could have held out for many hours in the timber. Why would they think any less of Custer? Are you suggesting that Benteen should have made tactical decision based on a projected timeline for an action with which he was not familiar for a situation of which he had no knowledge. Come on AZ you can do better than that. Best Wishes
Yes that is what I think. It's the same reason the message was confusing as to speed you can choose to go faster than the pack train or bring it at its slower base. That requires a choice. In Reno Creek the Indians would have to move through Benteen to get to the pack train. Heading along the bluffs is a different situation in my opinion. The pack train becomes more vulnerable and more likely to be spotted.
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on May 3, 2012 12:40:05 GMT -6
Did Reno lose control and panic (he did only lose one man on the skirmish line) Was Benteen slow (he may have took a bit of time watering his horses) But we can all sit here in hindsight and say this was wrong, he should have done this and that, that’s what a forums for in my opinion, but Benteen had to stop and see what the score was with Reno, he could have not rode by and waved his hat and say ‘’looks like you boys have had it rough, I’ll see you later Custer has sent me a note’’, he had to stop and assess the situation along with Reno, it seems prudent to try and unite the three separate units together (Reno’s Bn, Benteen’s Bn and the pack train) before making a move North, Weir may have speeded things up by moving out along with his orderly closely followed by the rest of D Coy, but you have to treat the wounded men and get organised before you plan your next move. Reno did not know how long he could have lasted in the timber, if the Indians encircled him he would have no escape route, the whole place could have been crawling with warriors if he stayed for another 15/20 minutes, so we don’t actually know what Reno saw coming across the valley towards him. Benteen had to stop at Reno hill, he had no choice in my view, before he even got to Reno he had to water his horses, the day was really hot and they had just been scouting over rough terrain. The only real argument in my mind is when they got to Weir point, what do they do next, form Skirmish lines, make Weir a defensible position and wait for the rest of the command to reach them, charge down to Calhoun guns a blazing, we have all got our opinions over what they could have done on Weir point, going on what they saw they had to make a judgement call and the one they made was ‘’as Benteen said’’ this is a hell of a place to fight Indians, they moved back. What a great post, Ian. This isn't my business, so please pardon my presumptuousness, but I am really proud of you; you have come a long way from that very first post. You have asked; you have learned; you have weighed; you have taken the beatings; you have persevered; and while we may not agree on everything, I respect your reasoning, your logic... and I admire your passion. Marvelous!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2012 12:52:51 GMT -6
Richard: I am somewhat disappointed in your methodology. You have every reason to feel any way you wish to about a person or event. That is not now, nor was it ever in question. What I would wish you would do is voice your objections in a manner where they can be fully examined and commented upon in whole and not in part as we have seen in these past days. Taking a piece here and a snipit there completely out of flow and context is in my view counterproductive.
When you see something that you feel is wrong with say Benteen's actions state fully what you think is wrong as well as the context it belongs in. Then list why you think it is wrong in detail, leaving no reason(s) or parts of reason(s) out. Then tell us what you would do in the identical set of circumstances, placing yourself in the shoes of the person you are critical of. Then state your reasoning for your actions and why you feel they are better. Give us examples how how you feel your judgment is better. Absent this it is the distraction of a Springer Jones, and I know you better than to think that is your motivation.
Critical comments do not hold much water unless you can fully articulate better solutions.
PS: For those of you who may be across the great waters or have never martriculated at the Columbus School for Boys, Springer or Springbutt Jones was the guy who always set in the back of the classroom in Building 4 with his hand in the air saying,; I know teacher. Why do you do it that way teacher? Do I have to teacher? Thus, he was constantly in a state of perpetual contempt of the wisdom of the ages as taught by the worthies at that noble institution. The usual solution was to drop him from a height of about 2000 feet sans parachute, and he was still raising his hand all the way down.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 3, 2012 13:53:36 GMT -6
I agree with Fred, yantaylor.
Agree with QC.
Obviously, a good day starting with Goldin being a hackeysack is a good day to the end.
Freshen this. Someone? I'm parched over here........
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Post by benteen on May 3, 2012 14:26:15 GMT -6
Ian,
I may be least qualified to critique anyone but I share Capt Freds compliments toward you. When you look back at it my friend, it may be Dark Clouds boot camp that turned the trick. Im begining to believe there is a method to his madness. Rather than quit you determined to make yourself a real student of this battle and you have. I look forward to your posts. Well done.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2012 14:29:06 GMT -6
DC: Your wish is my command. Some poor soul over there just said that she obtained a copy of Fred's book and liked it. That's like droping you personal Satan autographed pentagram on the floor at Saint Peter's during an exorcism.
Dan: I am begining to think you are correct about the boot camp business. DC did me a kindness yesterday, when he could have hung me out to dry, which I greatly appreciate.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 3, 2012 15:01:20 GMT -6
I'd like to point out that nobody on either board has been maligned and slimed as much as Custer, Reno, and Benteen, all safely dead. They all performed well enough in their lives and actions than they are due far more regard than people accord them here even if, in fact, the three in any way screwed up at the LBH, which is debatable.
What I have hated from birth, it now seems like, are those without standing to do so making stuff up, distorting out of context, and just dissing those three people for whom they themselves are not qualified to launder socks. Combat officers and vets alone have the knowledge and experience to dis another combat officer's actions under fire, and then with caveats.
The rest of us can only quote others and debate their standing to do so without any ability ourselves to damn their actions. It's especially revolting to damn others to elevate the poster. That alone condemns the poster to disregard and ridicule.
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Post by benteen on May 3, 2012 15:34:18 GMT -6
I dont want to start a raging debate about an insignifacant item,(Benteen refusing Renos order to dig in) but I was reading Benteens testimony from the RCOI. It states as follows
"The night of the 25th Major Reno was up on the hill where my company was and ordered me to build breastworks. I sent for spades but there were none."
To me this doesnt look like Benteen defied Reno, it appears that he in fact attempt to comply but there was nothing to build breastworks with. He admits that (In his own mind) he thought it unnecessary, but it looks like he tried to comply anyway.
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on May 3, 2012 16:21:04 GMT -6
Dan,
I think it more a tempest in a teapot than anything else. The issue was Indians to the north shooting into Benteen's rear and digging into hardscrabble with coffee cups was hardly the way to build a trench. Plus it was late; men were exhausted... like you said, you make the effort, you hand over the "results" to the lords of futility, and you take you take your chances. Even if Reno were bugged, what was he going to do, arrest him? Benteen could have dug a bigger ditch with his spurs.
It isn't like I made no mistakes in combat....
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on May 3, 2012 16:26:47 GMT -6
DC did me a kindness yesterday, when he could have hung me out to dry, which I greatly appreciate. Welcome to our foxhole, Queenie! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2012 16:45:10 GMT -6
Ever to be henseforth known as a Cloudanista. I have been in worse company, a lot worse. Fred, I said I was grateful, not that I wanted to kiss him. Come to think of it maybe DC needs just that, a BIG FAT SMOOCH
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