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Post by conz on Dec 10, 2007 11:06:48 GMT -6
<Sounds too sober> Since when do soldiers follow drunks? When they are their superiors! Being drunk doesn't take you down in rank or authority. I've never heard of any Soldier ever failing to obey an order because they thought or knew that their NCO or officer was drunk. May have happened somewhere, sometime, but that is not the norm. Inebriation is not an excuse for failing to follow orders...either in the order giver or the order receiver! Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2007 14:06:18 GMT -6
but it can be a reason for not following an order for many reasons: - Could not understand the slurred speech
- It made no sense
- Could not physically do it
- It was not lawful
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Post by erkki on Dec 10, 2007 15:49:48 GMT -6
but it can be a reason for not following an order for many reasons: - Could not understand the slurred speech
- It made no sense
- Could not physically do it
- It was not lawful
An order that can be misunderstood will be understood. --Moltke
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Post by conz on Dec 11, 2007 7:49:35 GMT -6
LOL...in the Army we are fond of saying..."If a dead German general said it, then it must be true!"
At Ft. Leavenworth, the CGSC students say that their final papers won't be approved unless they contain at least one quote from a dead German or live Israeli general.
Clair
btw, von Moltke was also the one who said that we could learn nothing about the Art of War from studying the Civil War...it was just an affair of armed mobs.
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Post by fred on Dec 11, 2007 10:27:13 GMT -6
... von Moltke was also the one who said that we could learn nothing about the Art of War from studying the Civil War...it was just an affair of armed mobs. He said that before he knew of the machine gun, otherwise he wasn't far from wrong.
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Post by conz on Dec 12, 2007 14:11:01 GMT -6
These Native accounts may pertain to this episode:
The party we killed made five different stands. Once we charged right in until we scattered the whole of them, fighting among them hand to hand. One band of soldiers was right in rear of us; when they charged we fell back and stood for one moment facing each other. Then the Indians got courage and started for them in a solid body. We went but a little distance, when we spread out and encircled them. All the time I could see their officers riding in front, and hear them shouting to their men. It was in this charge that most of the Indians were killed. We lost 136 killed and 160 wounded. We finished up this party right there in the ravine. –Red Horse
Then all Indians mounted and charged. Then the gray horse company turned their horses loose, and some of the horses rushed through the Indians and toward the river. When Indians charged to top of hill they saw the other two companies way down near to the river. Then all the soldiers turned their horses loose. The gray horse company was destroyed on the hill near where they went out of sight. The Indians charged in among them. One of the companies retreated down toward a little gulch where they tried to fight under cover. Here the last of the soldiers were killed. He saw and [?] what the gray horse company did and those who took refuge in the little creek. Those in the creek were all killed before he got there. – Young Two Moon
“The soldiers were completely surrounded… Custer stopped to fight before he reached his last place; but I think that he said Custer went to that point finally and the last defenders were killed here. At any rate, he said that those were all killed at Custer Hill before those were down along the ravine. These latter, when the others were down, made a break through a narrow gap in the Indian line and ran toward the river trying to escape. They were on foot. The Indians followed them and killed them with war clubs of stone and wooden clubs, some of the latter having lance spears on them. In this pursuit one Indian stumbled into a low place, among the soldiers, and was killed by them.” – Respect’s Nothing
The Hunkpapa, Good Voiced Elk, was also near the head of Deep Ravine, and he recalled that "those who broke from [the] end of ridge and tried to get away by running toward the river were dismounted. There was a deep gully without any water in it. I saw many jump over the steep bank into this gully in their effort to escape, but these were all killed. There were probably 25 or 30 of them." See Walter M. Camp Papers, Robert S. Ellison Collection, item 6, Denver Public Library.
So the suicide boys were the last Indians to enter the fight. Wolf Tooth said they were really watching for them, and at last they rode out down below. They galloped up to the level ground near where the museum now is. Some turned and stampeded the gray horses of the soldiers. By then they were mostly loose, the ones that had not been shot. The rest charged right in at the place where the soldiers were making their stand, and the others followed them as soon as they got the horses away. The suicide boys started the hand-to-hand fighting, and all of them were killed or mortally wounded. When the soldiers started shooting at them, the Indians above with Wolf Tooth came in from the other side. Then there was no time for them to take aim or anything. The Indians were right behind and among them. Some started to run along the edge under the top of the ridge, and for a distance they scattered, some going on one side and some the other`. But they were all killed before they got far. – John Stands in Timber
"The White Horse Troop fought with signal desperation. If the others had not given up, but had fought with equal stubbornness of the WHT, Custer would have driven the Indians from the field...The Gray Horse Troop stood at the present monument with their horses, but finally had to let them go, being surrounded and hard pressed." – Two Moon
"While Custer was making his last stand on the hill, about forty of his men, letting their horses loose, made a break from the command and endeavored to reach the timber on the LBH, but none of them succeeded and all were killed. No officer was with these soldiers." – White Bull
"One band of soldiers [of Custer's command] was in the rear of the Sioux. When this band of soldiers charged, the Sioux fell back, and the Sioux and the soldiers stood facing each other. Then all the Sioux became brave and charged the soldiers. The Sioux went but a short distance before they separated and surrounded the soldiers. I could see the officers riding in front of the soldiers and hear them shouting [commands]. Now the Sioux had many killed. The soldiers killed 136 and wounded 160 Sioux. The Sioux killed all these different soldiers [of Custer's command] in the ravine." – Red Horse
"Suddenly a cry went up among the Indians, 'They're going!' Up on the ridge gray cavalry horses were stampeding. Little Bear's horse reared. Bringing him under control, Little Bear raced up the slope toward the soldiers. A few yards short of them, his horse was shot from under him and he went down in a swirl of dust....Now a strange thing happened. A whole group of soldiers started running on foot down the hill toward the Indians. It was obvious they were so terrified that they did not know what they were doing. They fired guns into the air and made meaningless motions with their arms. At first, the Indians around Iron Hawk fell back, so weird was the performance of the soldiers. Then someone yelled: 'Hoka hey!' It was a signal to charge and the warriors rushed in. In no time at all the soldiers were all down. Most of them put up no fight at all but let themselves be killed without a struggle. A soldier on horseback came riding aimlessly down the slope. Iron Hawk set an arrow to his bow, penetrating the soldier's chest....Nearby, Brings Plenty had unhorsed another trooper and was killing him with a war club. Almost the entire gray-horse troop was now wiped out. A few Indian women, mostly Cheyennes, had already ventured back to camp and were in the river bottom trying to catch the big gray cavalry horses as they stampeded down the hillside." -- Miller
Clair
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 14, 2007 15:52:03 GMT -6
Here's my interpretation of the Indian accounts you have listed describing the action centering on E Co....the Gray Horse Troop, with my own clarifications underlined in bold parenthesis:
Note: Red Horse's description below does not describe the action of E Co., but rather describes the battle against Keogh's battalion in the swale on the east side of Battle Ridge (note that Red Horse makes no mention at all of the Gray Horses):
The party we killed (ie: the Keogh Battalion) made five different stands. Once we charged right in until we scattered the whole of them, fighting among them hand to hand (this refers to Crazy Horse and White Bull's charge from East Ridge down into Keogh's swale). One band of soldiers was right in rear of us (he is referring to Keogh's dismounted 1st platoon of Co. I which Keogh led across the top of the Ridge to arrive at the rear of the attacking Indians down below); when they charged (ie: Keogh leading his 1st platoon) we fell back and stood for one moment facing each other (Keogh's arrival stabilizes his situation and drives back the Indians). Then the Indians got courage and started for them in a solid body. We went but a little distance, when we spread out and encircled them. All the time I could see their officers riding in front, and hear them shouting to their men. It was in this charge that most of the Indians were killed. We lost 136 killed and 160 wounded. We finished up this party right there in the ravine (ie: Keogh's swale). –Red Horse
Then all Indians mounted and charged. Then the gray horse company turned their horses loose, and some of the horses rushed through the Indians and toward the river (Two Moon describes the mounted attack on the horseholders of E Co. These horse were attacked between LSH and Cemetery Ridge and then driven down towards Deep Ravine ford to the river). When Indians charged to top of hill (ie: LSH, which was presently unoccupied) they saw the other two companies way down near to the river (here Two Moon is describing the previous sighting of E & F Companies much earlier in the battle who were returning from their recon to the north ford). Then all the soldiers turned their horses loose (after their return to the high ground, the Indians attacked the horseholders of E Co and drove them down to Deep Ravine ford as described in his first sentence above). The gray horse company was destroyed on the hill near where they went out of sight (ie: on Cemetery Ridge, where they had previously blocked their sight from the Indians when they went to the north fords....when Two Moon says they were destroyed there, he means their position was destroyed, not that they were killed there)). The Indians charged in among them (the horseholders of E Co. and then finally the few survivors left on LSH) One of the companies (E Co. now dismounted on Cemetery Ridge) retreated down toward a little gulch (ie: Deep Ravine) where they tried to fight under cover. Here the last of the soldiers were killed. He saw and [?] what the gray horse company did and those who took refuge in the little creek (ie: Deep Ravine). Those in the creek were all killed before he got there. – Young Two Moon
“The soldiers (on LSH & Cemetery Ridge) were completely surrounded… Custer stopped to fight (ie: at the north slope of Cemetery Ridge) before he reached his last place; but I think that he said Custer went to that point (ie: LSH) finally and the last defenders were killed here. At any rate, he said that those were all killed at Custer Hill before those were down along the ravine (ie: Deep Ravine). These latter (E Co's dismounted trooper atop Cemetery Ridge), when the others were down (after the capture of LSH), made a break through a narrow gap in the Indian line and ran toward the river trying to escape (or trying to retrieve their lost horses). They were on foot. The Indians followed them and killed them with war clubs of stone and wooden clubs, some of the latter having lance spears on them. In this pursuit one Indian stumbled into a low place, among the soldiers, and was killed by them.” – Respect’s Nothing
The Hunkpapa, Good Voiced Elk, was also near the head of Deep Ravine, and he recalled that "those who broke from [the] end of ridge (ie: from Cemetery Ridge, not LSH) and tried to get away by running toward the river were dismounted. There was a deep gully without any water in it. I saw many jump over the steep bank into this gully in their effort to escape, but these were all killed. There were probably 25 or 30 of them." (mostly dismounted trooper of E Co.) See Walter M. Camp Papers, Robert S. Ellison Collection, item 6, Denver Public Library.
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 14, 2007 16:15:16 GMT -6
Part 2 of my interpretations of Indian accounts of the battle, with my own clarifications underlined in parenthesis:
So the suicide boys were the last Indians to enter the fight. Wolf Tooth said they were really watching for them, and at last they rode out down below (they arrived from the vicinity of Ford D 1). They galloped up to the level ground near where the museum now is (ie: on Cemetery Ridge). Some turned and stampeded the gray horses of the soldiers (being held in the gulch between LSH and Cemetery Ridge). By then they were mostly loose, the ones that had not been shot. The rest (of the suicide boys and warriors who joined them) charged right in at the place where the soldiers were making their stand (Custer's HQ & Co. F on LSH), and the others followed them as soon as they got the horses away. The suicide boys started the hand-to-hand fighting, and all of them were killed or mortally wounded (they sacrificed their lives by attacking directly into the carbine fire of the defenders at LSH). When the soldiers started shooting at them, the Indians above (ie: on the East side of LSH) with Wolf Tooth came in from the other side (thus attacking the defenders of LSH from the rear as they were defending themselves from the attack of the suicide boys from the north and west). Then there was no time for them to take aim or anything. The Indians were right behind and among them. Some started to run along the edge under the top of the ridge (apparently, some troopers broke and ran back towards the Keogh position along Battle Ridge), and for a distance they scattered, some going on one side and some the other`. But they were all killed before they got far. – John Stands in Timber
"The White Horse Troop fought with signal desperation. If the others had not given up, but had fought with equal stubbornness of the White Horse Troop, Custer would have driven the Indians from the field...The Gray Horse Troop stood at the present monument with their horses, but finally had to let them go, being surrounded and hard pressed." (Two Moon mistakenly identified E Co. at the monument after their horses were driven off by the suicide boys, not realizing that it was the troopers of F Co who were there dismounted. This mistake was made because E Co did occupy LSH a bit earlier at the time that Keogh's battalion was destroyed int he swale, but they were later sent, along with Porter and some of Keogh's survivors to occupy Cemetery Ridge, which was essential to the defense of LSH))– Two Moon
"While Custer was making his last stand on the hill, about forty of his men (ie: E Co. Troopers on Cemetery Ridge), letting their horses loose (the horseholders let them loose after being attacked by the suicide boys who launched a mounted charge on them in the gulch between LSH & Cemetery Ridge), made a break from the command and endeavored to reach the timber on the LBH (at Deep Ravine, but note the implication that the timber area at the river would have made a better defensive position), but none of them succeeded and all were killed. No officer was with these soldiers." – White Bull
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 14, 2007 16:33:21 GMT -6
My continued interpretations of Indian accounts of the battle, with my own clarifications underlined in parenthesis:
Note: the account given below by Red Horse I believe describes the action in Keogh's swale, not Last Stand Hill or the demise of E Co. To further support this contention, you will note that he makes no mention at all of the Gray Horse Troop, unlike all the other native accounts of the action concerning Yates Battalion.
"One band of soldiers [of Custer's command] was in the rear of the Sioux. When this band of soldiers charged, the Sioux fell back, and the Sioux and the soldiers stood facing each other. Then all the Sioux became brave and charged the soldiers. The Sioux went but a short distance before they separated and surrounded the soldiers. I could see the officers riding in front of the soldiers and hear them shouting [commands]. Now the Sioux had many killed. The soldiers killed 136 and wounded 160 Sioux. The Sioux killed all these different soldiers [of Custer's command] in the ravine." – Red Horse
Now, getting back to E Co:
"Suddenly a cry went up among the Indians, 'They're going!' Up on the ridge (ie: Cemetery Ridge) gray cavalry horses were stampeding. Little Bear's horse reared. Bringing him under control, Little Bear raced up the slope toward the soldiers (Little Bear was positioned in the low ground below Cemetery Ridge). A few yards short of them (ie: Co. E on Cemetery Ridge), his horse was shot from under him and he went down in a swirl of dust....Now a strange thing happened. A whole group of soldiers (ie. Co. E troopers) started running on foot down the hill (ie: Cemetery Ridge) toward the Indians. It was obvious they were so terrified that they did not know what they were doing (the Indians did not understand this maneuver, which was made shortly after their horses were stampeded into Deep Ravine followed almost immediately by the final assault on LSH.) They fired guns into the air and made meaningless motions with their arms (they were moving at double quick march, swinging their arms high according to regulation.) At first, the Indians around Iron Hawk fell back, so weird was the performance of the soldiers. Then someone yelled: 'Hoka hey!' It was a signal to charge and the warriors rushed in. In no time at all the soldiers were all down. Most of them put up no fight at all but let themselves be killed without a struggle (most were probably near a state of exhaustion by then, at 90 degrees and moving at double quick step in heavy wool & boots). A soldier on horseback came riding aimlessly down the slope. Iron Hawk set an arrow to his bow, penetrating the soldier's chest (Mitch Bouyer perhaps attempting to appear as an Indian?)....Nearby, Brings Plenty had unhorsed another trooper and was killing him with a war club (perhaps Lt. Sturgis or even Porter?). Almost the entire gray-horse troop was now wiped out (an indication that it was indeed E Co that made this maneuver from Cemetery Ridge at the end of the battle. Had it occurred from LSH, it would have also included the troopers of F Co. as well) A few Indian women, mostly Cheyennes, had already ventured back to camp and were in the river bottom trying to catch the big gray cavalry horses as they stampeded down the hillside." (thus indicating that the dismounted charge of E Co into Deep Ravine occurred very shortly after their horses were stampeded into Deep Ravine by the suicide boys) -- Miller
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kenny
Full Member
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Post by kenny on Dec 14, 2007 22:19:46 GMT -6
Didn't Red horse said that 30 troopers that headed for the river, came from circle of dead horses with dead troopers on top of them and dead horses on top of them?
I don't think that E Co. was trying to get their horses back. They most likely was running to the river, for water to drink.
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 15, 2007 2:52:03 GMT -6
Didn't Red horse said that 30 troopers that headed for the river, came from circle of dead horses with dead troopers on top of them and dead horses on top of them? I am not familiar with the above version kenny. The reason I suspect it had a good deal to do with an attempt to retrieve their horses (along with the spare ammo they carried) has to do with Indian accounts which have E Co. breaking for Deep Ravine very shortly after their horses were stampeded by an Indian warparty and only after they witness the defenders on LSH being overrun by the final charge over the hill. Of course, it was possible that they felt they could reach a more defensible position in the ravine or timber down by the river. If it was just a drink of water they were after, then why only E Co. making the break? Reno's troopers didn't head off for water until the following day.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 15, 2007 6:56:24 GMT -6
"Some started to run along the edge under the top of the ridge (apparently, some troopers broke and ran back towards the Keogh position along Battle Ridge), and for a distance they scattered, some going on one side and some the other. But they were all killed before they got far."
That's an intriguing thought, keogh. If your interpretation's correct, could it suggest Keogh's position hadn't yet completely fallen at this point, if troopers perceived it as a place of safety? Or is it simply that the sight-lines from LSH meant they were unaware of what had happened?
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 15, 2007 20:12:23 GMT -6
"Some started to run along the edge under the top of the ridge (apparently, some troopers broke and ran back towards the Keogh position along Battle Ridge), and for a distance they scattered, some going on one side and some the other. But they were all killed before they got far." That's an intriguing thought, keogh. If your interpretation's correct, could it suggest Keogh's position hadn't yet completely fallen at this point, if troopers perceived it as a place of safety? Or is it simply that the sight-lines from LSH meant they were unaware of what had happened? I agree that this certainly is thought provoking elisabeth. It could well indicate that Calhoun's position or even Finley Ridge may have not yet fallen. Michno is of the opinion that the C Co. defenders on Finley Ridge survived after the fall of Calhoun Hill, based on the Indian firing positions along Henryville, which seemed to have been along a north-south axis, indicating that they were firing at Finley Ridge rather than Calhoun Hill, after the latter had been abandoned and not yet occupied by the warriors.
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Post by conz on Dec 17, 2007 9:28:24 GMT -6
I agree that there is strong evidence that the "Finley" position was held for some time as an all-around perimeter. Early models had this as a rear-guard position covering Yate's retreat up Calhoun Ridge from the MTC ford early on.
But I agree that it is more probably a portion of C Co that didn't make it to Calhoun Hill...probably under less pressure as the "left flank" (looking west) of their movement to Greasy Grass ridge..the right flank being caved in by Warriors coming up Deep Ravine and Calhoun Coulee. The right flank guys would have scattered in all directions, and several bodies were found throughout Calhoun Coulee, the survivors making it to Calhoun Hill and on. The left flank, with SGT Finley, instead made a stand, and died there.
It is possible that Finley's group was actually cut off from Calhoun Hill by a surge of Natives coming up the slopes to the south (Henryville area and south) in response to the Calhoun position turning around to face their rear, lessening the fire keeping Gall's men pinned down to the south. So maybe this prevented Finley's flank from being able to run, while the boys down in Calhoun Coulee had an open route to the top of Calhoun Hill (closely pursued, "buffalo hunt" style, by LWM & Co).
Clair
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kenny
Full Member
Posts: 156
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Post by kenny on Dec 18, 2007 21:05:52 GMT -6
Finley and his squad could had made a stand to hold off the Indians. So that their fellow calvary man could regroup. But they were cut off with the rest of the command. But Finley and his squad could easily made their stand at the end of the battle. Meaning that sometime during the battle. C company along with I and L companies had form up with F and E companies. I think about 40 or 50 mans of Keogh wings made to Yates wing. Some went toward F company and others toward E company. But most of them went to E company position. Lt Porter and Harrington went with the troops that headed to the E company.
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