|
Post by fred on Dec 6, 2007 11:51:15 GMT -6
Did you simply misspeak when you suggested that Harrington or Porter may have commanded E at some point? Michael-- I'm rather a dreamer. I have this notion of both Harrington and Porter escaping their own respective killing fields and making it to Last Stand Hill. Neither body was ever found (or at least identified), though Porter's blood-stained jacket was found in the village. For some odd reason, I equate that to an "escape" to Custer Hill. Also, one might have thought Harrington would have been identified if he was killed among the C Company troopers. Likewise, Porter with I. They found Keogh, Bustard, Bobo, Varden, and others (Finckle, Finley, Foley, Butler), why not Harrington and Porter? Maybe they were among the unidentified in Deep Ravine; maybe they were particularly mal-treated. Other than that, no other reason. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Dec 6, 2007 13:26:24 GMT -6
Freddy and the Dreamers - Oh, I get it.
Nothing wrong with dreaming. One thing that strikes me as amazing is that so many bodies were identified. Around 50 of the around 200. Given the poor shape they were in, as well as being completely stripped of personal belongings by the time identifications were attempted/made. It is also possible that a number of mis-identifications were made. Still happens today not altogether infrequently.
You remind me: The point has often been made by some that 'many officers were out of place' and not with their commands. I can only think of two, T. Custer and A. Smith. As we know, three were simply not identified and may well have been found exactly where it is supposed they should have been. The two I mention can be reasonably explained as well.
M
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Dec 6, 2007 22:19:45 GMT -6
Did you simply misspeak when you suggested that Harrington or Porter may have commanded E at some point? Michael-- I'm rather a dreamer. I have this notion of both Harrington and Porter escaping their own respective killing fields and making it to Last Stand Hill. Neither body was ever found (or at least identified), though Porter's blood-stained jacket was found in the village. For some odd reason, I equate that to an "escape" to Custer Hill. Also, one might have thought Harrington would have been identified if he was killed among the C Company troopers. Likewise, Porter with I. They found Keogh, Bustard, Bobo, Varden, and others (Finckle, Finley, Foley, Butler), why not Harrington and Porter? Maybe they were among the unidentified in Deep Ravine; maybe they were particularly mal-treated. Other than that, no other reason. Best wishes, Fred. I rather think exactly the same as you on this Fred. I'm not so sure about Harrington, but I do think it very likely that Porter made his way to LSH with the remnants of I Co.'s 2nd platoon and was then sent further north to Cemetery Ridge, where I have most of E Company placed. If Smith had been hit earlier, and E was currently being commanded by Sturgis, I think it very likely that a more experienced officer like Porter as well as Mitch Bouyer were sent there as well, with the few survivors of Keogh's battalion. The breakout of 30 troopers into Deep Ravine described by the Indians at the end of the battle came from Cemetery Hill, not LSH. It is far closer and much less a distance to run. No way they ran dismounted in those Cavalry boots 1/3 of a mile. If they had, they would have been cut down long before reaching Deep Ravine.....their bodies would have been found about where Boston and Autie Reed were found. The latter two made their run from LSH and didn't get very far from it.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Dec 7, 2007 6:54:26 GMT -6
I rather think exactly the same as you on this Fred. I'm not so sure about Harrington, but I do think it very likely that Porter made his way to LSH with the remnants of I Co.'s 2nd platoon and was then sent further north to Cemetery Ridge, where I have most of E Company placed. If Smith had been hit earlier, and E was currently being commanded by Sturgis, I think it very likely that a more experienced officer like Porter as well as Mitch Bouyer were sent there as well, with the few survivors of Keogh's battalion. The breakout of 30 troopers into Deep Ravine described by the Indians at the end of the battle came from Cemetery Hill, not LSH. It is far closer and much less a distance to run. No way they ran dismounted in those Cavalry boots 1/3 of a mile. I am something of the dreamer regarding Harrington and I think I told you and "rch" why when we were in New York. I do not have the guts to post it here, so it will simply lay fallow. We do not really agree here-- about Cemetery Ridge-- though when we sit down together in that big battlefield in the sky and discuss this whole thing with George and Tom, I won't be surprised if you are correct. This is one of the things I like about what you put up here (except that dumb thing about L Company with Yates... yikes!... and please don't get me started with that battalion breakdown thing again; it's a sore point with me!); your work is always well-reasoned out and you know the terrain. That always helps and it always leads to great discussions. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Scout on Dec 7, 2007 7:52:57 GMT -6
Clair, I'll add a third theory:
3) the 'bunching affect" total fear. Trying to hold on the your horse was the last thought on your mind as the reality of the situation set in. Took two hands to operate your weapon. A horse was no good to you at this point.
We know the big jump toward the ravine was a unified action. Someone must have barked out the order, perhaps even a private. Or perhaps nothing was said... one or two troopers take flight and others would have followed. We've seen in numerous civil war battles. I find it hard to believe anyone would consider it a charge...who are you going to charge with forty men? That number in itself is suspicious though. Some Indian accounts say far less ran there which leads me to believe some soldiers may have already taken shelter there, which sounds realistic to me. Panic ruled.
|
|
|
Post by conz on Dec 7, 2007 7:56:31 GMT -6
Clair, I'll add a third theory: 3) the 'bunching affect" total fear. Trying to hold on the your horse was the last thought on your mind as the reality of the situation set in. Took two hands to operate your weapon. A horse was no good to you at this point. We know the big jump toward the ravine was a unified action. Someone must have barked out the order, perhaps even a private. Or perhaps nothing was said... one or two troopers take flight and others would have followed. We've seen in numerous civil war battles. I find it hard to believe anyone would consider it a charge...who are you going to charge with forty men? That number in itself is suspicious though. Some Indian accounts say far less ran there which leads me to believe some soldiers may have already taken shelter there, which sounds realistic to me. Panic ruled. Perhaps that would be the "ran in there" theory, then. But why do you think that "panic ruled?" Do you think the Soldiers were more scared than they were angry? My feeling is that while all normal men are scared in any kind of shooting/fighting (hell, even boxing), they are more angry and determined than they are scared in most cases, for most Soldiers. I think most Soldiers die determined and mad over their innate fear, not scared and witless, in any war. In my book, that may be scared, but it certainly is not panic. I don't see a lot of panic at LBH...some amongst portions of Reno's command more than at Custer's. On the Custer field, only C Co's being overrun might show some panic, but probably not even there...running for your lives, when it is the right tactical move (and it often is, especially in cavalry) is not panic. Panic is defined as the Soldiers acting AGAINST orders...or failing to respond to orders. Do you see any signs of this at the LBH fight? Clair
|
|
|
Post by fred on Dec 7, 2007 8:26:35 GMT -6
Do you think the Soldiers were more scared than they were angry? ... You're damned right, I do!Absolutely!Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Dec 7, 2007 10:22:39 GMT -6
<Someone must have barked out the order . . .>
Reno stated: "All those who wish to make their escape follow me."
Who's to say someone didn't give that type of order to those who ended up running toward Deep Ravine or in fact anywhere trying to escape?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Dec 7, 2007 12:44:59 GMT -6
Horse--
I don't remember... did he really say that? I know he did in the movie, "Son of the Morning Star" (which I watched for the umpteenth time last night), but is that fact?
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Dec 7, 2007 13:08:17 GMT -6
Hmm . . . not sure. It does stand out in my mind watching SOMS regarding Reno saying that.
And that's probably where I got it. I'll check to see if there is a source.
|
|
|
Post by conz on Dec 7, 2007 13:12:21 GMT -6
1SG Ryan, M Co, Montana Tribune 22 Jun 1923: “We got back to our horses and the orders were given to mount and this time some of the men became confused and some of them could not find their horses…Just at that moment the Indians fired into us from all sides, and I said to Captain French of my company: ‘The best thing that we can do is to cut right through them.’ By this time they had us surrounded. They were on higher ground than we were. Major Reno rode up and said: ‘Any of you men who wish to make your escape, follow me.”
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Dec 7, 2007 13:24:38 GMT -6
Conz you rat:
I just found this:
From John Ryan’s interview with the Hardin Tribune, June 22, 1923:
“Major Reno rode up and said: ‘Any of you men who wish to make your escape, follow me.’ "
Of course, 1923 is a long time from 1876, but Ryan is a primary source and reliable. Works for me!
|
|
|
Post by gocav76 on Dec 7, 2007 13:46:18 GMT -6
"In Custer"s Shadow" by Ronald H. Nichols page 181 he quotes Private William E. Morris as hearing Reno say "Men we are surrounded, draw your revolvers and follow me."
|
|
|
Post by conz on Dec 7, 2007 14:57:55 GMT -6
"In Custer"s Shadow" by Ronald H. Nichols page 181 he quotes Private William E. Morris as hearing Reno say "Men we are surrounded, draw your revolvers and follow me." Top, Sounds too sober. <r,d & g> ConZ
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Dec 10, 2007 9:51:35 GMT -6
<Sounds too sober>
Since when do soldiers follow drunks?
|
|