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Post by bc on Jul 25, 2008 14:49:20 GMT -6
Ok, clw, I stand corrected. I was relying upon Barnitz which is basically his diary entries and there doesn't seem to be much mention of scouts. His diary entries implies that they were just riding along following a tepee pole trail.
So Gordie you can ignore my request for further info on that subject unless you would like to enlighten us masses of the unenlighted. Or you could educate us masses of uneducated. I probably won't be buying anymore books for some time so I'll probably just drop the subject although since the Washita is much closer in proximity to Custer's Kansas operations, I should spend more time studying that than LBH.
But it makes me wonder, if there were scouts, how did they miss all the other vills and warriors?
One interesting factoid I gleaned from Barnitz in 1868 is when they came upon an Indian trail, they could tell if it was a warrior party or whether it was a hunting party by dog tracks. A hunting party would bring along their dogs and a warrior party would not. It's indicative that they were more sophisticated in following Indian signs than some give the palefaces credit for.
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Post by clw on Jul 25, 2008 17:04:47 GMT -6
bc ~
I'd love to read the Barnitz diary. The list just keeps getting longer and more ridiculous. But Greene contradicts him about it being a hunting party. Based on Grinnell, Hyde and Bent -- all noted NDN historians, Greene tells us it was a war party, returning from raiding on the Smoky Hill with the Dog Soldiers, that Elliot tracked back to Black Kettle. That, I think, is the basis that many use for the justification of the attack. I'm neutral on that argument.
As to not finding the other villages, it was night and they were about 5 miles away. Easy to miss, especially if you have no reason to expect more.
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Post by biggordie on Jul 25, 2008 17:18:34 GMT -6
bc:
I'm sorry that you got the impression that I considered you [or anyone else] unenlightened or uneducated. I certainly didn't mean to give that impression to you or to anyone else, and I apologize for not making myself clear, and for any offense given inadvertently. This apology is extended to anyone else who took ooffense at my posting.
I was simply commenting upon the fact that many disparate theories "make sense" but that there was only one scenario that actually transpired, regardless of how much sense it did or did not make [then or now]. I must be losing whatever ability I had to express myself in English. Again, my apologies to everyone whom I offended.
As to the scouting at the Washita, and let me first of all state unequivocally that I have not studied that action in any real depth, most accounts that I have seen [Godfrey, Gibson et al] say that the trail being followed was that of a group of warriors which led to Black Kettle's camp. This camp was discovered by Custer's Indian scouts [Osage, I think], and then reconned by the officers, as you stated. In this regard, the recon was more thorough than that at LBH, where nobody [except perhaps Bouyer and some of the Crows] saw any of the camps, and where Custer had to "grope" for the camps, with only a general idea of where they were, and no possible idea of their extent [some of the camps had joined from up the Little Horn, not down Ash Creek].
As to why the other camps were not discovered, I would guess that it was a matter of circumstance - BK's camp was not discovered until after dark, and then partly by chance. Godfrey says that they started on the final march at or shortly after 10 PM, and that the camp was found a couple of hours later, making it after midnight. The snow had melted in the sun during the day, he said, but it was terribly cold.
About the scouts - Godfrey also wrote that "Little Beaver, Osage Chief, with one of his warriors, had the lead dismounted as trailers; then followed the other Indian and white scouts with whom Genera Custer rode to be near the advance. The cavalry followed at a distance of about a half mile........After a couple of hours' march, the trailers hurried back for the command to halt. General Custer rode up to investigate when Little Beaver informed him that he "smelled smoke." and etc etc etc [this is from Some Reminiscences, Including the Washita, The Cavalry Journal, October 1928 - transcribed, no page numbers noted].
But, not being an expert on the Washita, I will accept your statement that there were sufficient similarities between that action and the LBH to make a comparison reasonable and relevant. I wont back off my statements about what makes sense, however.
And I tend to agree with your observation about the ability of officers to "read sign." You either learned to do so, within reasonable limits [that's why they used scouts, particularly Indian scouts], or you never got the chance.
Michael:
I'll have you know that I am still in the grip of menopause and resent being called post-menopausal anything. My rants have nothing to do with menopause - I just like to antagonize people as much as I can. No extra charge. I am an equal-opportunity abuser.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jul 25, 2008 17:32:03 GMT -6
clw:
I just noticed your comment about the Barnitz diary. You can take it off the list.
Gordie
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Post by clw on Jul 25, 2008 17:40:49 GMT -6
My Secret Santa strikes again!
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Post by bc on Jul 26, 2008 0:22:02 GMT -6
Gordie, don't apologize, I wasn't offended at your post and I don't think anyone else was either. My skin is pretty thick. My dry attempt at dry humor apparently came across as sarcasm instead in my post and for that I apologize to you. Can I blame it on PMS or something? I was the one who can stand a little educating though.
I'll do some further research on the Washita. After all, I need another distraction away from the mystery at MTC. Fred got me off on that Reno Creek a while back and at first I didn't know anything and didn't care to. But after going through the paces, I really learned a lot and learned things I needed to know to analyze the post MTC movements. Maybe the Washita will do the same for me if I can limit it to 3 books. I looked in the bargain books section of Waldenbooks at the mall tonight and couldn't find the Greene book or any other western history book for that matter.
Nothwithstanding anything else, it just seems from Barnitz's diary that the viewing from the ridge was similar in nature to the viewing at the crow's nest. Just different distances, etc.
clw, I think what Barnitz was refering to regarding the warrior party trail was from what would be two days before the battle itself. Barnitz makes it clear that the day before there were a number of converging lodge (he used the term tepee) pole trails going along the Washita that they began following.
One other thing, Barnitz does not indicate that they knew who the tribe or chief of the village(s) making the trail(s) they were following. As I recall from Stan Hoig's book, Sheridan sent Custer out to kill warriors in a punitive type action. I don't recall that Sheridan specifically targeted Black Kettle individually or his group although Sheridan and Custer probably knew which tribes were down their in Indian Territory and that Black kettle was one of them but someone can correct me on that if they want.
Sorry for digressing again so far away from the Keough mission thread.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Jun 25, 2009 20:49:35 GMT -6
The placement of Keogh and company at that position allowed, I think, Custer to proceed a bit further relatively unmolested. He then traveled down Custer Ridge (north) to a ravine located behind present monument located there. The command then traveled down Cemetery Ridge (west) to the area known as ford "A".
Locating this passable ford, he returned to the area of Last Stand Hill for the arrival of Benteen and Reno. The combined forces would then return to the ford and strike the northern end of the village.
Reno and Benteen did not arrive and, Custer and his command were swallowed up. To bad, to sad.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 25, 2009 22:04:10 GMT -6
Reno was never expected to arrive at Custer's location. That would leave the south open in direct violation of Terry's wishes. At best Benteen would have arrived with 3 half filled companies. If Custer had held out a for a day then I would buy it that Benteen could make a difference since the end was quick I don't believe Benteen's battalion would have affected the outcome other than casualty numbers.
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Post by conz on Jun 29, 2009 19:16:25 GMT -6
And I'll toss my opinion into the ring, and say that if Benteen hadn't halted at Reno's location, and continued to gallop right to Keogh on Calhoun Hill, the regiment would have done just fine, losing about the same number of men as Warriors, with the village and Warriors withdrawing.
The 7th would have met with Terry the next day, or day after, dropped off their casualties, and immediately taken off in pursuit of the village, which had gone towards Crook's encampment.
Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 30, 2009 8:11:11 GMT -6
<And I'll toss my opinion into the ring, and say that if Benteen hadn't halted at Reno's location, and continued to gallop right to Keogh on Calhoun Hill, the regiment would have done just fine, losing about the same number of men as Warriors, with the village and Warriors withdrawing>
Or . . . ended up just as dead as Custer and his command.
Another "what if" with no definate answer. <The 7th would have met with Terry the next day, or day after, dropped off their casualties, and immediately taken off in pursuit of the village, which had gone towards Crook's encampment>
Or . . . a la Crook fell back to lick its wounds.
Another "what if" with no definate answer.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Jul 5, 2009 18:32:49 GMT -6
It's the "what ifs" about this battle that stirs up the pot and keeps the soup tasty. The tastier the soup, the more ladles that get ;)dipped into it!
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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 9:47:27 GMT -6
I agree, Crzhrs...those are some of the possible and plausible outcomes. It all depends upon the decision making by leaders on both sides. The Soldiers and Warriors are pretty stable in their behaviors...it is the leaders' decisions that are the great variable.
Clair
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