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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 23, 2007 0:27:49 GMT -6
kenny:
The scene described took place AFTER Reno had started his attack advance, as is evident from the quote of what Custer replied to Varnum's question.
Hare had been assigned to Varnum to lighten the burden on him. Varnum was riding nearly twice as far each day as anyone else, and sometimes more. On the approach march, Hare was on one side of Ash Creek with Bouyer and the Crows, while Varnum was on the other [Benteen's side] with some of the Rees. The rest of the Rees were either in front of the two columns or with the packs.
Wallace, Varnum and Hare all went into the valley fight with Reno's battalion, but Wallace was not "officially" a part of it. The other two could be considered a part of it, since Custer had told Reno to take the scouts with him [although the way Reno has told it, he apparently didn't consider them part of his command, since he never counted them in his well-known 112].
You are correct in stating that Harrington was in the same class as Varnum and Wallace. Hare was a couple of years behind them.
Gordie, put on your high-heeled sneakers; wear that wig hat on your head.................................
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Post by blaque on Sept 24, 2007 10:48:22 GMT -6
kenny: The other two could be considered a part of it, since Custer had told Reno to take the scouts with him [although the way Reno has told it, he apparently didn't consider them part of his command, since he never counted them in his well-known 112]. Gordie, Reno did count the scouts as part of his command, albeit he did so just after the battle (July 30, 1876), long before he had to build his case: “I… charged, driving the reds before me… supposing my command, consisting of 120 officers & men and about 25 scouts and guards, followed by the column under Custer.” (Graham’s TCM, p. 226) Bt the way, this quote seems to bear out your view that Reno was never told that he would be followed by Custer. He just “supposed” that he would be followed, and no doubt he did expect so for the very reason given by Wallace, barely one week after the battle, July 4, 1876: “The fight had now commenced… General Custer WAS BEHIND –at least we left him there–…” (Westfall’s Letters from the Field, p. 43) Since the last thing Reno and his men knew of Custer was that the General was behind them, it’s quite natural for them to suppose that they would be supported from the rear. This is just what Wallace testified in the RCOI: that he SUPPOSED that Custer would follow them.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 24, 2007 15:04:37 GMT -6
This is somewhat of a digression from the main thrust of this thread, but in his Reply #57 Vern Smalley makes reference to the trips Jim Court makes to the 'original' Crows Nest. As a not so well heeled enthusiast I have been on two guided trips with Mr. Court, one in 2000 and the other in 2006. On the first trip I was taken to his version of the CN, but on the second we were apparently prevented from going there because the rancher who owns the land, had fenced it off as the result of some dispute. Is that still the case or has the dispute been resolved and access is again available? I mention this only because if access is still barred, a lot of people will be disappointed if they try to get to it.
Hunk
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 24, 2007 17:36:47 GMT -6
hunk:
You are right about last year. Mike Powell and I were to get together next year for a tour, and we were looking for some way to get up there, without simply trespassing and sneaking in during the night. I'm still looking into it, Mike had to opt out. I think I know who to contact, but haven't done so yet.
Things may have changed, and I am willing to fork over an extra couple of hundred to get access to CN and other areas, so we'll see what transpires.
I have already set my budget and travel dates for next year, and within the next couple of months will be extending an invitation to those who might like to join in the festivities , and also dates and what can be expected.
The nice thing about sharing is that I'm doing the tour anyway, so that anyone who comes along will not be sharing in the base cost, just the extra per head [and providing the beer].
Gordie, watch for the mail; I'll never fail. If you don't get a letter, then you'll know I'm in jail.................
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 24, 2007 21:16:37 GMT -6
Harp and Hunk, I've been to the Crow's Nest three times, once in 1999 when we hiked up it from the hollow down below and twice driving up it in 4W-Drive vehicles, the last time about four months ago. If you would like to read about it, take a look at Treasuredude's "Montana Mayhem" web site that I think he's posted on this site somewhere. The hike up from the hollow is short, maybe half a mile, but very strenuous. Driving it is near impossible and dangerous because of the ruts, etc. It's well worth the hike.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 24, 2007 23:07:16 GMT -6
So, does that mean that the Fox brothers have access that Court no longer has? I've never made it to the CN -- either one -- so I would sure like to see it. Gordie, am I correct that you refuse to go during Custer Week?
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 25, 2007 0:12:05 GMT -6
The Fox brothers have a very good relationship with all the landowners. I don't know if Rich leads any of Court's tours now or not. Court might not be in the business anymore. I'm not sure how involved Fox is. We just had an "in" with a friend of his. He might not be leading tours anymore.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 25, 2007 4:05:01 GMT -6
I've just received the latest CBHMA 'The Battlefield Dispatch' in which Dennis Farioli, te new President states at the end of his President's Message that the morning after the Sunday board meeting, "Jim Court and Dennis Fox led a smaller group to the Crow's Nest to watch the sun rise...............What an experience to stand on the exact spot where Custer looked 131 years ago!'
Seems to answer some of our questions and do no good to Vern's blood pressure!
Hunk
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 25, 2007 10:24:47 GMT -6
diane:
Next year, I will be overlapping the anniversary week, 16 to 28 June. I had heard that Dennis could likely get up to CN, and that he was doing tours for Jim Court. I have yet to verify. Keogh, bless his helmeted head, has just PM'd me with a couple of alternate suggestions for getting up there, which circumvent the tour operators and deal with the land owners directly.
I'll be following up on all of these avenues, although the "strenuous" from bubbabod has me wondering about physically making it. I'll have to go on a diet and start working out.
Tomorrow.
Gordie, quit nagging, - it's just a small plate of fries, and I do have to lift them to my mouth..............
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 25, 2007 15:21:38 GMT -6
Gordie, I am lost in admiration. Pumping potato is a must for an exercise DVD. My experience with the original CN is that if you cannot get close to it with a 4 x 4, it would be quite a slog on foot.
Hunk
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 25, 2007 17:45:55 GMT -6
Hunk and Harp, I can tell you once again that the trek up to the CN on foot is extremely strenuous. If you've seen the pictures of the bowl at the foot of the crow's nest, that's where cars park and you hike up from there. Now, I think even if you're lousy shape, such as I am, you can make the trip up, but you'll have to take it very slow, stopping often. The grade is quite steep. It's not that far a hike; but just very steep. So if you go with a group with a lot of patience or to give you a pull up now and then, you can do it. If you have any disabilities, I'm afraid you'll have to forget about it. But, man, it sure is worth it if you can make it.
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Post by Treasuredude on Sept 25, 2007 20:59:38 GMT -6
When bubbabod, myself, and the rest of the guys went up there this past summer it was all 4x4. Helluva ride! Hold on tight. The Fox brothers were worried about getting up there because of the rain they had been having. When we got there in the 4x4s it looked awful. I was in the vehicle with Rich and he says, "Great, this looks good" and gave it the gas. I would have hated to see it in bad condition!
I would recommend against trying to figure out all the landowner mess yourself. Like Frank said, the Fox boys know all the people personally. Somehow I was designated the fence open/close guy. I got out and was opening a fence that was literally in this person's backyard. This lady came running over and said, "Hey,hey,hey! Stop, stop, stop!" I just stood there with my usual dumb look on my face. Rich and Dennis got out and she smiled and said, "Oh, it's you boys." They talked and laughed a while and then we went on our merry way. It definitely helps having a local with you.
I must also agree with Frank and say that the view is well worth any effort to get up there.
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Post by bubbabod on Sept 25, 2007 23:35:45 GMT -6
My biggest regret is I didn't have my camera ready to take Treasuredude's picture when that lady came running out in her apron hollering at him. Does the phrase "caught like a deer in the headlights" right a bell? Oh, and as an aside, a word of caution about trying to figure out how to get there on your own and without the landowners' permission, T-dude, Fred and I went on a long ride out Reno Creek Road before the rest of the group arrived. Kind of a sunset ride out in the boonies. I was following Reno Creek Road heading east from I-90. I don't know when we left the public road and wound up on private property roads, but I really suggest you don't do what we did. We coulda gotten in trouble for not knowing what we were doing. I'd only do it again with an authorized guide. Those landowners get kinda "ickie" when you go riding down their roads without permission.
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Post by mwkeogh on Sept 27, 2007 1:43:48 GMT -6
When bubbabod, myself, and the rest of the guys went up there this past summer it was all 4x4. Helluva ride! Hold on tight. The Fox brothers were worried about getting up there because of the rain they had been having. When we got there in the 4x4s it looked awful. I was in the vehicle with Rich and he says, "Great, this looks good" and gave it the gas. I would have hated to see it in bad condition! I would recommend against trying to figure out all the landowner mess yourself. Like Frank said, the Fox boys know all the people personally. Somehow I was designated the fence open/close guy. I got out and was opening a fence that was literally in this person's backyard. This lady came running over and said, "Hey,hey,hey! Stop, stop, stop!" I just stood there with my usual dumb look on my face. Rich and Dennis got out and she smiled and said, "Oh, it's you boys." They talked and laughed a while and then we went on our merry way. It definitely helps having a local with you. I must also agree with Frank and say that the view is well worth any effort to get up there. That sounds an awful lot like the Davis Creek Ranch. They built that gate right across the road within a stone's throw from their house back in the late 90's if I'm not mistaken. Much of your trouble from gaining access comes from the non-Indian landowners. Its now become a big business to corner the market on gaining access to the Crows Nest. Its in their interest to frighten away those who would follow in the footsteps of Walter Camp and go it alone.
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Post by Margaret on Dec 11, 2010 12:56:06 GMT -6
I think this thread is worth putting back on the first page as it's so fascinating, especially I think to newer members who may not have come across this most interesting challenge to the long held status quo that Mr Smalley put forward. I must say it sounds convincing and I'm intrigued by it. I have often thought how difficult it must be to climb Crow's Nest Hill, quite laborious I imagine, despite Mr Gray's assertion in his book that it is ''a short climb to the viewing points''. Members on another thread who have visited seem to have struggled - presumably one needs to be extra fit to cope....? Varnum's ''peculiar hollow'' and ''broken country'' always puzzled me too from looking at maps. I wonder if the member mcaryf is still around here somewhere? My view would have been aligned with his intially but I'm not so sure now. Perhaps he can tell us if he ever resolved these issues satisfactorily, or still in disagreement with Mr Smalley....? I should like to know, but have a feeling I never will
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