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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 4, 2007 13:35:51 GMT -6
When C went to his waiting column at Halt 2, he first denied seeing anything at all. Then he was told various reports about warriors seen in the near vicinity. He had his adjutant Cooke borrow DeRudio's better field glasses, and George and his brother Tom ment back to the lookout once again. When he returned from the SECOND trip, he made the preparations to attack. He never told anyone what he saw, but the fact that he prepared to immediately attack says he must have seen something that convinced him. Most likely he saw the horse herd because the village was hidden and the smoke had dissipated.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 4, 2007 13:38:39 GMT -6
Thanks, Diane. As always, you're a breath of fresh air.
Vern.
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 5, 2007 7:46:37 GMT -6
<When he returned from the SECOND trip, he made the preparations to attack. He never told anyone what he saw . . .>
And this is a occurrence that seemed to be a fault of Custer's. He seemed to keep vital info to himself and failed to notify others.
He failed to recall Benteen and/or inform him of Reno's orders immediately after ordering Reno to charge the village . . .
He failed to notify Reno of any change of his plans to support him . . .
Failure of communications was as important a factor at the LBH as anything else.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 5, 2007 15:00:56 GMT -6
You sure got that right! When he decided to go north from North Fork, he failed to tell Reno that it was a change in plans. Whereas everyone said Custer was to provide support to Reno, three people explicitly said that support was to be from the rear. Not one person said it was to be on a flank. Attacking on a flank might have been the way they did it in the Civil War, but Custer told Reno he was going to follow him.
Then there's the issue of Custer moving to the north after sending Martin, and not continuing on to attack the village after the hatwaving episode. Custer changed his mind once again and decided to not attack, but to wait for Benteen. Again, he told no one in the valley fight what he was up to.
Very poor generalship. I think he was counting on "Custer's Luck" to do whatever he wanted and that it would all work out just fine anyway. (This is a tough pill for the Custer worshippers to swallow, so we need to keep this to ourselves. Remember, someday you might be an old crony and want people to be nice to you, too).
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 5, 2007 17:12:38 GMT -6
The trusting to "Custer's Luck" is hardly new. I do believe somebody actually entitled a book in that vein, and it certainly has been promulgated as fact for years and years, strangely enough often by those Custer worshippers you declaim.
"but Custer told Reno he was going to follow him." Do you have a source for this information? From what I can gather, Custer never told Reno anything - the order was conveyed via Cooke, as one would naturally expect it would have been. I know that there is some controversy over who gave Reno his pursue and attack order, but I have never seen where Custer specifically said he would follow Reno. "You will be supported [by the whole outfit]" is usually how the wording is characterized.
Gordie, a man is a man as long as he can stand and think straight.................................................
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kenny
Full Member
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Post by kenny on Sept 5, 2007 18:07:47 GMT -6
Lt. Cooke told Reno that he was going to be supported by the whole Command. That when Lt. Cooke and Capt. Keogh was riding beside Reno column. It likely that Custer told Lt. Cooke to tell Reno that.
Custer did support him. But it was after Reno had retreated.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 5, 2007 23:05:28 GMT -6
How did Custer support Reno? Please explain.
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 5, 2007 23:26:39 GMT -6
kenny:
I know - you'll note that I actually more or less quoted the order to Reno. My question was meant for Vern Smalley, asking where he got the "Custer told Reno he would follow him" from. My emphasis was on the follow part, not the support part.
Gordie, I gots support, you gots support, all God's chillun gots support. When I gits to heaben gonna call for support...................................
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kenny
Full Member
Posts: 156
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Post by kenny on Sept 6, 2007 0:02:28 GMT -6
Support could be coming from behind the person are supporting and it can be by attacking the enemy from the rear. Which might cause the enemy to take men that are fighting the person you are supporting off the line and bring the to fight you. Then if you have more men that wasn't in the fight yet. That you might know where the are. They would come and support the men that you are supporting.
So where every Custer was attacking the Indians. He was supporting Reno.
Harp. I didn't know.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 6, 2007 7:48:24 GMT -6
Kenny, I thought that was what you meant. I believe that's what Custer intended to do, but he failed.
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 6, 2007 10:58:33 GMT -6
Harps: CUSTER'S LUCK Edgar Stewart . . . one of the best objective books on the LBH.
There are various versions of Reno's orders with a number of statements by Girard, Herendeen, Wallace, etc. which all have the gist but different wording.
Indians running . . .
Village running . . .
Bring them to battle . . .
You will be supported by the entire command . . .
There must have been one "official" order that was given to Reno but what was it and who gave it . . . or do we have to use waving hats to communicate?
I will say that I have never heard he would be followed part.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 6, 2007 19:05:23 GMT -6
Yes, it's really true. I'm in a rush to get out of here, but will quickly state that Dr. Porter, Lt. Hare and a third person (whose name escapes me at the moment) all said that Custer was going to FOLLOW Reno. Not one person said that Custer was going to go to the north and attack on a flank. Support was supposed to be from the rear.
Want page citations? I'll give them, but my sweetie and I are leaving town (just ahead of that mob with the axe handles!).
See you in a week or so.
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 7, 2007 18:01:40 GMT -6
Vern:
Congratulations and best wishes!!
Porter did not testify to Custer saying anything. He testified that Cooke gave the orders to Reno: "The adjutant came over and told him the Indians were just ahead and General Custer directed him to charge them. He turned around and asked the adjutant if General Custer was going to support him. He said Custer would support him. He asked him if the General was coming along and he told him, 'Yes,' the General would support him."
As far as Hare is concerned, he never, so far as I can see testified to the matter at all, not having been there when the order was promulgated. He did testify to when Reno was ordered to take the lead, after the scouts had supposedly refused to do so.
Gordie, no stars in the sky, except for the few that were there, in your eyes...................................
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 16, 2007 21:11:29 GMT -6
I'm back from exploring the western edge of Montana.
Ok, the issue is what were Reno's orders? In a 1910 interview with Walter Camp, Hare stated that he heard Cooke tell Reno "to go on in pursuit of the Indians and Custer would follow right behind and support him." Custer in '76, page 65
In 1879 testimony, Dr. Porter said he heard Reno ask Cooke if Custer was "coming along," and Reno was told "yes" and that "the General would support him." CBHMA, Reno COI, page 188.
Wallace testified that "I suppose he was following." CBHMA, Reno COI, page 31.
The above three quotes are the only ones I've found that state or imply Custer (Cooke) told Reno Custer was going to follow him in the valley fight. I've found nothing that states (or implies) Custer said the support would be by a flank attack. If you know of something that says the support would be from the flank, please let me know, ok? Yeah, I know a lot of people speculated that was what Custer was going to do, but the litmus test is whether they might have been near enough to Reno to hear it first hand.
If Reno was indeed told to expect support was going to be coming from the rear, it explains why Reno wasn't scanning the bluffs, looking for the Gray Horse Company (as Varnum apparently did), and why Reno stopped his attack when he saw no support from the rear.
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 17, 2007 0:58:10 GMT -6
Hare had no idea of what the order was, since he wasn't there, and he was never interviewed by Walter Camp. Camp had some notes in his piles of notes that led someone to believe that he had interviewed Hare, who was never interviewed by anyone, but who did write a few letters on the subject of LBH, none of which touched on the subject of Reno's orders. Many of Camps "interviews" were not interviews at all, but notes made from newspaper articles and etc. etc.
Wallace was not with Reno when the order was given by Cooke. He was with Custer [as per Varnum, who called for him to come along and not stay back with the coffee-coolers].
Reno assumed that his support was coming from the rear [except in his official report], and mentions looking anxiously for it. He may have been entitled to believe that, but Custer never said he would follow him, and there is no evidence that Cooke said anything except "yes" when asked if he would be coming along, as I noted in my post.
Semantics are semantics, and not always important. In this case what was said is what was said. And as McLeod would say: "There you go."
Gordie, dancing in the light of a new love and looking at the night, I have you, love...............................
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