|
Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 17, 2007 21:53:32 GMT -6
Excuse me, but are you and I reading the same page of Custer in '76? ? Try page 64 where it explicitly says "Interview with Luther Hare, February 7, 1910." And you say that Camp got all this stuff from newspaper accounts? ? Hello? Sorry, friend, but I'll accept that Hare said it and he meant it. Wallace and Porter heard what they heard, and each stated his interpretation of what he heard. Reno said he expected support was to be from the rear and people have consistently denigrated the man because it was inconsistent with their opinions of him. Yet we have three other people who said the same thing. Too bad some folks have egg on their face, but that's life. I admit to having wrongly judged Reno, too. He was a heck of a lot more gallant (and sober), at least in the valley fight, than many give him credit for.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 18, 2007 9:23:05 GMT -6
I'm not reading Custer in '76. I'm reading a letter from Luther Hare which says that he never met Mister Camp, corresponded with him, or spoke to him. Neither did Edgerly, whom Camp also claimed to have interviewed [or at least such an interview was attributed to him]. It is well known that many of Camp's "interview notes" were not from interviews, but were jotted down from newspaper items or snippets from magazines or information from some other source.
The point, friend, is that neither Hare nor Wallace were in a position to hear what Cooke said to Reno, so it doesn't matter what they said about it, and Porter never said that Cooke said that Custer would follow Reno, only support him. And even if Cooke said it, that is not Custer saying it.
That was the crux of my question, not whether or not Reno expected Custer to follow him, which he clearly did, and which everyone knows, but whether Custer actually told him he would follow him, which is what you posted, and which is not correct - or if it is, you still haven't produced your source for Custer saying these words to Reno.
Gordie [smiles], smile when your heart is aching, smile even 'though it's breaking.....................................
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Sept 18, 2007 9:50:54 GMT -6
From the RCOI:
Girard: "Reno would be supported . . ."
Herendeen: "He (Custer) would be with him . . ."
Porter: "Adjutant (Cooke) said Custer would support him . . ."
Wallace: "We (Custer) will support you . . ."
Have not seen anything in the COI about anyone following Reno other than being "supported"
Hare stated: "Custer turned to Adjutant Cooke & told him to order Maj. reno with his battalion ahead . . ."
PS: This was AFTER Custer wanted the Indian Scouts to go after the "running" Indians, but they refused, thus Reno was ordered to pursuit them.
If the Ree Scouts went after the running Indians would Reno have stayed with Custer rather than getting his orders to "bring them to battle"
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Sept 18, 2007 21:29:08 GMT -6
From the RCOI: Girard: "Reno would be supported . . ." Herendeen: "He (Custer) would be with him . . ." Porter: "Adjutant (Cooke) said Custer would support him . . ." Wallace: "We (Custer) will support you . . ." Have not seen anything in the COI about anyone following Reno other than being "supported" Hare stated: "Custer turned to Adjutant Cooke & told him to order Maj. reno with his battalion ahead . . ." PS: This was AFTER Custer wanted the Indian Scouts to go after the "running" Indians, but they refused, thus Reno was ordered to pursuit them. If the Ree Scouts went after the running Indians would Reno have stayed with Custer rather than getting his orders to "bring them to battle" And now add to the above Reno's own view of Custer's support, in his own words roughly 3 years before the RCOI: "it was evident to me that Custer intended to support me by moving farther down the stream and attacking the village in flank." (from Reno's Official Report of the battle written July 1876). Re: Hare's testimony at the RCOI: Hare said that Reno knew Custer had not followed him up and that everybody "supposed that he would attack the villages somewhere. If he did not follow up, he would attack it somewhere else and that was the only way he had of going to the village." (Graham, Reno Court, p. 248)
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 19, 2007 6:41:38 GMT -6
"it was evident to me that Custer intended to support me by moving farther down the stream and attacking the village in flank." (from Reno's Official Report of the battle written July 1876).
Keogh- that statement is after he had a chance to see what happened. It does not go to what he was thinking at the time of pulling out of the timber.
You know that someone cannot testify what someone knew.
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Sept 19, 2007 17:30:26 GMT -6
"it was evident to me that Custer intended to support me by moving farther down the stream and attacking the village in flank." (from Reno's Official Report of the battle written July 1876). Keogh- that statement is after he had a chance to see what happened. It does not go to what he was thinking at the time of pulling out of the timber. You know that someone cannot testify what someone knew. AZ Ranger I understand your point Ranger, but I do think it pertinent that Reno never mentioned anything about expecting Custer's support from the rear in his official report written 10 days after the battle. If this were true, he would surely have mentioned the fact. He would no doubt have said, "Custer intended to support me from the rear, but instead chose to move farther down the stream and attack the village in flank." Hare's testimony, as well as DeRudio's at the RCOI made it clear that Reno as well as all the other officers knew very well that Custer was intending to support them by attacking the village further down the river. The whole story about Custer's intended support to come from the rear did not arise until the RCOI nearly 3 years after the battle. Does anyone here have a source for it mentioned before then?
|
|
|
Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 20, 2007 10:08:20 GMT -6
Hey, Gordie. Tell us the date of Hare's letter where he said he wasn't interviewed by Camp. Maybe tell us where we can get a copy of it? ? I was wrong when I said the litmus test was whether someone was standing near Reno in order to hear the orders given to him. I didn't consider Wallace who was near Custer, and who probably heard Custer tell Cooke what to say to Reno. I was really trying to exclude Godfrey and Vaughn (a contemporary author) from being credible witnesses. They were nowhere near Custer, Cooke or Reno when the orders were given, and anything they said about the valley fight was based on hearsay and speculation. I try to assess only first-person testimony. I agree that AFTER learning where Custer was, Reno said that C was going to support on a flank. But the issue is what were Reno's orders? Has anyone found anything that the orders did NOT include following Reno? Why didn't Reno mention this lack of support in his offical report? I don't know. But there was much he didn't include. The argument that he didn't include it because it didn't happen is pretty weak. It's an argument that should be overcome, I grant you, but it's still pretty weak. So you don't have a copy of Custer in '76, huh? My copy is so worn (with pages falling out), I bought a second copy just to be sure to have one. Good book, filled with first-person interviews. Of course there are a few lies in it, especially by Curley and White Man Runs Him, but it's a good exercise in finding the lies and inconsistencies, I think. Yes, the RCOI has two references to Custer following Reno, one by Wallace and one by Dr. Porter. I gave the page numbers earlier.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 20, 2007 11:30:31 GMT -6
18 August 1919. You can purchase the letter from me, or wait ten years or so until I publish my book. If I croak first, you can possibly arrange a purchase from my estate.
I do have a copy of Custer in '76, and I have used it extensively.
I quoted Porter's testimony in one of my posts. Neither he nor Wallace said that Custer said he would follow Reno, which is what my question was about. You said that Custer told Reno he would follow him. I think the orders to Reno have been hashed and rehashed to death, and there is no doubt that Cooke told Reno that he would be supported or that Reno thought, rightly or not, that the support would come from the rear.
That is not the same thing as Custer telling Reno that he would follow him. He did no such thing, and you can equivocate all you want, but you can't change the facts.
I never claimed that Vaughn said anything about Reno's orders, so I fail to see why you raise him as an issue. I brought up Vaughn's name in connection with his research into Reno's positions in the valley, and mentioned that he did this research 30 years earlier than Jason Pitsch. I did not question your driving in the pipes as directed by Pitsch or Jason's alleged finds.
You ask if anyone has found anything that the orders did NOT include following Reno. You might as well ask if anyone has found anything that the orders did NOT include the promise of hotdogs for everyone if the assault was carried out successfully.
Here for the edification of yourself and anyone who might be interested, is a short excerpt from a chapter in my referenced book titled "The Approach to the Little Horn - Reno's and Custer's march" at the point where the "attack order" is issued:
"The two commands were still in motion, and when Custer had seen whatever he saw from the vantage point of the hill, he issued an order to Major Reno. This order was transmitted to Reno very near the flat where Ash Creek and its main northern arm meet. The exact wording of the order, how it was delivered, and what it meant, are still in dispute. The importance of the order cannot be overstated, for it was this order which launched Reno into his fight in the valley, and the interpretation of which is the basis for the defense of his subsequent actions.
"Five persons survived the fights and testified to having heard this order delivered. Two were officers of the regiment - Major Reno and Lieutenant Wallace; two were civilians - Interpreter Fred Gerard and Scout George Herendeen; one was an enlisted man - Sergeant, then Private, Edward Davern, who was Reno's orderly on 25 June 1876.
"Wallace's testimony was rather sketchy and self-contradictory, leaving the impression that he might have been testifying from later knowledge. 'We passed a tepee which had some dead bodies in, and soon after passing that, the adjustant came to Major Reno and said that the Indians were about two and a half miles ahead, and Major Reno was ordered forward as fast as he could go, and to charge them and the others would support him,' he testified. 'I think it was promulgated through Major Reno's adjutant [Hodgson]. I don't know that. I think so.'
"'The order was about this, "the Indians are about two miles and a half ahead, on the jump, follow them as fast as you can, and charge them wherever you find them, and we will support you." I think those were the words. The term "we" I am not positve of.'
"'Lieutenant Cooke, the adjutant of the regiment, came from General Custer to Major Reno and said to him, "The Indians are about two miles and a half ahead. They are on the jump.Go forward as fast as you think proper, and charge them wherever you find them, and he will support you." My mind is not exactly clear. I know he was to be supported.'"
to be continued..............................
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 20, 2007 12:04:01 GMT -6
continued.................
"Wallace could not be sure if the order came direct from Cooke to Reno, or came to Reno through Lieutenant Hodgson, his adjutant; and he was not consistent as to the gait Reno was to use - 'as fast as you can,' or perhaps 'as fast as you think proper.' He also forgot to say that the Indians were 'on the jump' in his first version, and was not certain as to who would do the supporting - 'we' or 'he.' He summed up his testimony quite nicely, however, when he got in the last 'I know he was to be supported,' and it may well be that that was his sole purpose. Lieutenant Varnum, however, recalled in his unfinished memoirs thatv Wallace was actually with Custer, not Reno, when Reno launched his pursuit [see below].
"Wallace's testimony dovetailed nicely with Reno's. Reno said: 'I moved forward in accordance with the order received from Lieutenant Cooke to the head of the column. Soon after that, Lieutenant Cooke came to me and said, "General Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent, and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit."' Reno repeated this order exactly under cross-examination, adding, 'I think those were the exact words.' For more than a hundred years, writers have accepted, and used, the Reno version as historical fact, which is passing strange since he was the defendant at the inquiry.
"The testimony of the non-officers is not quite so cut and dried. What George Herendeen had to say was very brief, but he was certain that the order came direct from Custer to Reno. 'I heard General Custer tell Major Reno to lead out and he would be with him. Those were about the words I understood him to use. That is all I heard.'
Fred Gerard was a bit more detailed in his description, while still indicating that Custer gave Reno the orders directly. 'The General hallooed over to Major Reno and beckoned to him with his finger, and the Major rode over, and he told Major Reno, "You will take your battalion and try and overtake and bring them to battle and I will support you." And as the Major was going off, he said, "and take the scouts along with you." He have him orders to take the scouts along, and that is how I heard it....The order I heard was direct from General Custer to Major Reno. I do not pretend to say Lieutenant Cooke dod not communicate the order first.'
"Orderly Davern had an entirely different version of the order, and stated that he was right beside Reno when it was given. 'I heard Adjutant Cooke give him an order. The order was, "Girard comes back and reports the Indian village three miles ahead and moving. The General directs you to take your three companies and drive everything before you." These I believe were the exact words..."Colonel Benteen will be on your left and will have the same instructions."' Davern repeated these words exactly when cross-examined by Reno's attorney.
"It is, of course, impossible to reconcile these various accounts without going through some rather strange mental gyrations, contortions, and leaps of logic. It is not necessary to reconcile them to understand what Major Reno did in the valley - it is only when examining the aftermath of the battle that knowing the actual order would prove invaluable. It is evident, however, that Custer gave Reno two separate and distinct orders. The first, given near the lone tepee, was to take his battalion into the lead. This may have been what Herendeen meant by his evidence. The second, transmitted near the flat, was the 'pursue and attack' order. This order was given at approximately H1415, according to Wallace's time estimate.
"After receiving the order, Reno led his command...................................."
Gordie, you might want it today, and tomorrow just throw it away, and the only thing that's permanent is change..........................................
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 20, 2007 16:08:41 GMT -6
I think the issue of Camp's fabrications are also in Graham, as I recall a letter from Edgerly to Graham saying Camp had never met him. Hare wouldn't write Graham, but I recall second hand stories that he wouldn't say anything about Custer till the Olde Bag died, and that Camp hadn't met him either. I'm sure enough not to look it up.
|
|
|
Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 21, 2007 12:00:23 GMT -6
Hmmmm. Buy a copy of your letter or wait 10 years? Gee, would you consider posting a copy? Good post, Gordie. You're doing some good research here. But speaking for those of us who are past our prime, forgetfulness is a common malady. In 1919, Hare was 68 years old (I'm slightly older) and his interview with Camp was some 10 years earlier. Maybe he forgot meeting with him? Some 10 years ago I went up to the traditional Crow's Nest with Richard Fox, Dennis Fox and a third person whose name I have forgotten. I cannot tell you to this day what his name was, what he looked like or what we talked about, but we did indeed have a one-hour visit in the back seat of Dennis' jeep. In short, I guess I'd be more convinced about Hare not remembering his visit with Camp if he wrote his letter shortly after the date of his interview. Until that letter surfaces, I'll give more credibility to Camp's notes, especially since the type of things found in his notes are not likely from newspapers. They appear to be from an actual interview. Edgerly also denied giving an interview with Camp? Wow! So there are three of us who have bad memories! (Smiles). So let us agree to disagree and part as friends, ok?
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 21, 2007 14:14:35 GMT -6
No I would not care to post a copy. If you've read some of my posts you will note that I do not share proprietary sources, especially if they cost me money or lots of time. I have read most, but not all, of Camp's notes and correspondence in their various repositories, including some in private hands. You'll also have noted that I tend to prefer original sources.
As to agreeing to disagree and parting as friends, that's certainly okay by me.
Gordie, obfuscation is the name of the game....................................................
|
|
kenny
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by kenny on Sept 22, 2007 16:52:06 GMT -6
Gen. Custer send 1st. Lt. Cooke over to Major Reno. With orders for Reno to charge the village that was up ahead and he will be supported by someone. Acting engineering officer Lt. Wallace was with Major Reno at that time.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 22, 2007 18:36:08 GMT -6
kenny:
You will note in my reply #83 above a mention of Varnum saying that Wallace was with Custer. I did n ot include that section of the chapter, since it did not touch on the matter of Reno's orders. Here it is.
"Charles Varnum had just reported to Armstrong Custer when Reno was pulling out:'Major Reno with three troops of the 7th Cavy. was passing in front at the trot. I reported to the General saying I guess he could see about all I could of the situation. "I don't know. What can you see?" said the General. "The whole valley in front is full of Indians." I replied, "& you can see them when you take that rise." (pointing to the right front).'
" 'I asked where Reno was going & he [Custer] told me he was to attack. I asked if I was to go with him [Reno]. He said I might, ' continued Varnum. 'Fred Gerard, the interpreter, shouted a lot of Undian language to the scouts & we started at the gallop. My classmate, Lt. Wallace, was riding wth the General as topographical officer. I turned back and shouted to him, "Come on, Nick, don't stay back with the coffee coolers." Custer laughed & made a sign to Wallace who joined me.' Varnum always remembered Custer's laughing reaction to the 'coffee coolers' remark, and put it down as a sign of Custer's special fondness for him. The comment might have seemed impudent had it come from some other officer, he thought. He also thought it showed that Custer was far from depressed in spirit [see Bates, Charles F. in Biblio.]"
As mentioned previously, you will find Varnum's story in his unfinished narrative, which is most easily found in Carroll's I Varnum. Although Varnum never finished either of his narratives, or at least the missing parts have not been found yet, they are great sources for his trip to Crow's Nest, and for the approach to the Little Horn.
Gordie, one of these mornings you're gonna rise up singing, then you'll spread your wings..................
|
|
kenny
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by kenny on Sept 22, 2007 23:44:06 GMT -6
You probably right. But that took place before Lt. Cooke give order to Reno. But in Reno court of Inquiry. Lt George Wallace stated that he went with Reno.
I thought the Lt. Hare was assign to Lt. Varnum. I sure that you are right. But I have never read the Varnum's narratives. So I can't agree or disagree with you. I have to go by memory and what I find and read on the Enternet. Plus books about subject at the library I check out they have the book I looking for. The last book I read on the BOTLBH was call The Facts of the Battle of the little big horn. But there is some mistakes in it.
So Lt. Wallace, Lt Varnum and Lt. Harrington were in same class.
|
|