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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 25, 2006 20:40:46 GMT -6
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 25, 2006 22:53:16 GMT -6
Thanks to our gracious hostess, Diane Merkel, we have some photos that we can discuss. The topo map at the top is included just to orient everyone. It is found in the USGS 2-1/2 minute quadrangle map called Thompson Creek NW. We can refer to the map as we go through the discussions.
The next photo is what you see when you stand on Varnum's Lookout and look to the northeast. The two hills I've called Elephant Hill and Eastern Hill are slight rises but because Varnum's Lookout was so low (a little over 4,000 feet), they appear to stick up quite a ways. The middle hill is set back quite a distance, and when you stand at the lookout, it appears that all three are lined up. They aren't. I climbed Elephant Hill and was surprised to see that the middle hill was set back quite a considerable distance. So when Varnum wrote that those seven Sioux were on a ridge that was parallel to Custer's route, he probably incorrectly included the middle hill.
Can you see the bushes on top of Elephant Hill which is roughly a half mile away? They are waist high, and that gives you some idea of the scale. Now look in the upper left corner and see the trees. Those trees are roughly a mile away. So when Varnum wrote that the seven Sioux were outlined against the sky (see Carroll's Custer's Chief of Scouts), and were replaced by some spots (see Hammer's Custer in '76) he was talking about a nearby hill such as Elephant Hill. Also we know that Black Bear told about meeting three Cheyennes (Custer in '76), and that places the seven Sioux right next to the lodgepole trail that Custer was following. The bottom line is that I believe that the seven climbed the first hill they came to (Elephant Hill) wherein their horses were outlined against the sky and appeared as big as elephants.
When I climbed to the top of Elephant Hill and looked back at Varnum's Lookout, the bottom photo is what I saw. Varnum's Lookout is a crescent-shaped hill in the topo map, but when seen on edge, its contours can't be made out. In fact, there is no place I know of where you can stand and get a good picture of the thing. It is a flat, barren, inclined hill that opens toward the Rosebud (as Varnum said), and it is covered with short buffalo grass, not bushes or trees (as Varnum said). Because it has no place for hiding, one would have to crawl to its top to remain concealed (as Varnum said). When the seven Sioux went to the top of Elephant Hill, Varnum was exposed to them but apparently what got their attention was Custer's column making all the dust rise in ascending Davis Creek.
Note that the Camp marker is further south, in fact it's the otherside of the hill used by the Bozeman Prospectors to fight off Gall and a bunch of Sioux in 1874. Godfrey, who was at Halt 2 at the time, said Varnum's Lookout was north of where they crossed with the regiment, and it is. Actually Godfrey called it the Crows Nest but he, like many others, thought that the Crows really had gone to the Crow's Nest.
I have some more photos looking to the east and west from Varnum's Lookout, and you will see that more clues are satisfied with this site. Unlike the traditional Crow's Nest Hill lookout, all clues are satisfied with this one.
My thanks again to Diane for facilitating this.
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 26, 2006 2:29:19 GMT -6
I have been having an off-board debate with Vern about his theory concerning Varnum's observation position, as he has not yet convinced me that I am wrong I will post my argument here.
Varnum was very clear in his statement that he was on a higher position than the 6 or 7 Indians that he saw. However, he also stated that he saw them against the sky so that their horses appeared huge as if they were elephants.
Vern's conclusion is that Varnum mixed up his comment somehow because for the Indians to appear big against the sky then Varnum must have been below them. He uses this as an argument against the traditional Crow's Nest location as this would be typically higher than the surrounding area.
My counter to this is that it is possible for someone to view an object against the sky even if they are actually higher than them. This occurs if both parties are actually on relatively high points some distance apart but the land then falls away beyond the position that is being viewed. In this case the viewed location becomes the horizon for the viewer and anyone on it would be seen against the sky due to the curvature of the earth. This configuration actually exists as there is a ridge about a mile and a half NNW of the Crow's nest at an elevation of 4116 feet versus a typical Crow's Nest point at 4200 feet. The ground is lower behind this viewed point as it follows part of Tullock's Creek.
If you also consider that it was early morning then there is an added effect from the shadows created by the low rising sun. These might also seem huge to an observer from above (but not so much from below) thus adding to the effect that Varnum reported of the Indian ponies seeming huge.
I am only commenting on the issue of whether the Indians were higher or lower than Varnum not on the validity of the rest of Vern's arguments for his alternate location.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 26, 2006 8:47:36 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that, Mike, and we'll continue our discussion here. My point is that there are several criteria that must be met. Varnum did indeed write that his lookout was higher than where the seven Sioux were at, but he clearly miswrote and that is what is causing all the confusion. In the same sentence he wrote some nonsense that their images "were reflected against the sky." I don't have a clue how any image gets reflected against the sky, so he must have meant outlined against the sky. That is indeed what Varnum wrote in each of his two reminisences, they were "outlined against the sky." I think that we have to ignore a confusing sentence and rely on what he wrote twice later, and at different times. His lookout was at a lower elevation. On the topo map we've posted here, you can see the dashed line to the SW of Halt 2, and that it follows a contour line. You would have to stand to the north of that line in order to be at a lower elevation than Elephant Hill. Of course, that places you in a location wherein no other clues are satisfied.
The next criterion is that they were so close, their ponies looked as big as elephants. There is no way that criterion can be satisfied if the Sioux were so far away, you could barely see them. They had to be up close, less than a half mile away, which they would be if Varnum was on his lookout and the Sioux were on Elephant Hill. As I pointed out earlier, three Cheyennes were shadowing Custer while Custer was following the lodgepole trail. Black Bear met up with them, meaning that Black Bear and his six companions were also following the lodgepole trail on their way back to the Rez. This is consistent with being close to the lodgepole trail.
Note also that Varnum said there was a gap or pass (i.e., a saddle) in the divide just north of his lookout. My second photo shows the saddle. There is no saddle north of Crow's Nest Hill.
Our gracious hostess, Diane, will hopefully soon post views to the east and west from Varnum's Lookout so you can get a better look of the place.
Cheers! Vern Smalley
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 26, 2006 11:47:12 GMT -6
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 26, 2006 11:57:55 GMT -6
Hi Vern
As I cannot convince you with my earth curvature argument I will try some eye witness testimony.
Standing Bear was with Black Bear his account is as follows describing their travelling down the Indian trail up Davis Creek when they spot Varnum's horse tracks coming up it:
"...they discovered a fresh trail of shod horse tracks on the older trail. Having fought soldiers (Crook) only a few days before, their suspicions were at once aroused, and one of them proposed that they ride back to the top of the divide and take a look around which they quickly did. From this point they could see the smoke of Custer's camp to their left, and away off to their right, high up among some trees, a small party of men, apparently scouts (Varnum's party)......They then retraced their steps to high ground, and here it was that Varnum saw them."
This is from Custer in 76.
It seems to me that this fits the Crow's Nest location for Varnum quite well but would give you some difficulty to reconcile with your alternative location as they are plainly East of the Divide but able to see Varnum's party higher up amongst some trees.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 26, 2006 15:19:11 GMT -6
Thank you, again, Diane. The double photo above compares two views to the west. On the left is the view from standing on the western edge of the traditional Crow’s Nest Hill. The stream in the valley at the immediate front is Davis Creek, and it flows from left to right, to the north. Behind it and about a half mile away is the divide that Custer crossed. Lt. Varnum said that when they saw two Indians about a mile away and went to kill them, they spent a half mile of hard work through very broken country (Custer in ‘76). As you can see, the half mile to the west of the CN Hill is smooth and not very broken. In fact the valley is quite smooth all along the western side of CN Hill.
Now back to the double photo. The right view is to the west from Varnum’s Lookout. You can disregard the light-colored rock-strewn foreground, but look into the valley beyond. There is a ridge about a mile away that is parallel to the divide (just as Varnum said), and between here and there is very rough broken country for the full mile (just as Varnum said).
Next let’s look to the east from Varnum’s Lookout. He was unable to see the column back at Halt 1 (4 miles to the east), but he saw smoke from the breakfast fires and dust as the column approached. I used a bunch of speckles to show what the dust might have looked like. Varnum wasn’t able to see the column itself until it emerged from behind an intervening hill, just as you can see here. The column stopped at Halt 2, shown in the photo, and as confirmed by archaeological finds.
Note that Varnum’s Lookout is covered with short buffalo grass, and slopes to the Rosebud (east). The horses were kept at Davis Creek in the foreground, and when Varnum went up to his lookout he “crawled.” Why? The hill was nearly flat and there was nothing to hide behind.
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 26, 2006 15:52:18 GMT -6
Mike, sorry, but I wanted to post the explanation of my photos before I got too far away in the discussion.
You say that Standing Bear said that he saw some people high up in the trees and it was Varnum? Gee, I don’t think so.
First of all, how did Standing Bear know it was Varnum and not some other people?
Second, note that the comment that it was Varnum’s party is enclosed in parentheses. That was Walter Camp’s speculation!
Walter Camp was convinced (as have been many others) that the Crow’s Nest was the hill itself that contains the hideaway that was actually called the Crow’s Nest. Camp said that “Some now call it “Custer’s Last Look.”” See Hardorff, page 61 of On the Little Bighorn With Walter Camp.
But all this is ok, and I’m glad to have you still with me, Mike. I’m going to include a little treatise on lookouts versus hideaways. You might find it amusing.
Lt. Varnum used the terms “Nest” and “Crow Nest” for the lookout itself. Lts. Hare and Edgerly used the term “Crows Nest” without an apostrophe to also refer to the lookout.
When Col. W.A. Graham interviewed (then) Orderly-Trumpeter John Martin, it was likely Graham who wrote the story, stating Custer had gone to the “Crow’s-nest.” Graham had introduced an apostrophe “s” as well as a hyphen, which added confusion because the dictionary uses the same hyphenation when refering to a lookout on top of a ships mast. When Graham’s book, The Custer Myth, was published, he included a photo with the caption “At the Crow’s Nest (1919). Now the term applied to a landmark, not a lookout!
White Man Runs Him never referred to the lookout itself as the Crow’s Nest. He called it “the Custer lookout.” As far as he was concerned, what the white people were calling the Crow’s Nest, he was calling “the pocket.”
When Godfrey wrote his 1927 letter, he referred to the lookout that Custer went to as the “Crows Nest.”
Thus we have Varnum’s Lookout being called the Crows Nest, and the sanctuary hideout called the Crow’s Nest. Various authors have mixed these terms for many years, adding to the confusion.
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 27, 2006 6:55:13 GMT -6
Hi Vern
I understand that you have some reasonable arguments that justify your idea of a different location and I understand the idea that the Crows got lost in the dark. However, I do not see why they would have stayed in the wrong place once morning came.
It is a significantly poorer location for views to the North and East and being lower than some of the surrounding area it is very vulnerable to their being spotted by hostile warriors.
Thus to accept it we would have to assume they chose to stay in the "wrong" place, to discount both Varnum's "being higher" statement and Standing Bear spotting what he thought were scouts upon the Crow's Nest, deal with various difficulties with the Arikara testimony and explain how Varnum et al could have spotted the command riding up Davis Creek as well as the hostiles going down it.
Whilst I understand you have identified some issues with the traditional location for me the balance of probability still favours that.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 27, 2006 12:54:01 GMT -6
Fine, Mike. You believe what you want. Varnum’s Lookout will remain as I have defined it, and as they say, that’s what makes horse races. But if there is a lesson in here for you, I hope that you will consider this: Walter Camp interlaced a lot of his own thinking into his notes as published by Hardorff, Hammer and Liddic. You have to question everything.
I just came across yet another clue that helps define where Varnum’s Lookout was (and wasn’t). This one comes from (then Pvt.) Theodore Goldin whom I personally do not hold in high esteem. However, unlike other topics where he was motivated to lie, I don’t see any reward for him in this statement:
“As I now recall it, the Crow’s Nest was on the right of the trail as we came up out of the Rosebud valley. . . .”
Ref: John M. Carroll, The Benteen-Goldin Letters on Custer and His Last Battle, page 96.
We have two battle participants saying the Crow’s Nest (i.e., Varnum’s Lookout) was to the north of the divide crossing, Godfrey and Goldin, and none, other than White Man Runs Him, telling us it was to the south. Unfortunately, WMRH was motivated to lie regarding its location.
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 27, 2006 13:14:28 GMT -6
Mike, please let me correct you on a couple of your statements.
First, Standing Bear DID NOT identify any of Varnum's scouts as being Varnum's scouts on the traditional Crow's Nest Hill. Here is what Camp wrote: ". . . and away off to their right, high up among some trees, a small party of men, apparently scouts (Varnum's party)." (Custer in '76, page 214)
If you can point to any statement that confirms Standing Bear was looking at Varnum's party, I'll be happy to change my mind as well as put your rationale in my book and give you full credit. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe he saw some men and didn't know who they were, and it was Walter Camp who was speculating that it might have been Varnum's party.
Regarding what the Arikaras and Varnum saw on Custer's trail, there is no testimony I'm aware of that the Arikaras or Varnum saw Custer's column itself until it came into view and after getting around an interceding hill. I have a photo of that hill shown above. All they saw was dust as the column approached until it got around the hill. (Custer in '76, page 61).
If you know of any first-person accounts that say otherwise, let me know and I'll give you full credit.
Best wishes,
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 27, 2006 15:27:36 GMT -6
Hi Vern
1) The statements you are trying to correct are not mine - all I have done is provide you with quotations. I agree that it is Camp's interpretation that the "scouts" Standing Bear saw were those with Varnum as Standing Bear would not have any knowledge of Varnum. However, if they were not Varnum's scouts then we have to postulate another group presumably of hostiles apparently in the vicinity and in a position to do Varnum's party harm if they chose but apparently they did not.
2) You did not address my query as to why the Crows would have stayed in a relatively poor and dangerous position after they discovered in your scenario that they were in the wrong place.
3) I will give you another Varnum quote which indicates that he was on the East side of the Divide. This was quoted in Custer in 76:
By this time smoke could be seen in a ravine towards the Rosebud showing where Custer was.
Now if Varnum means precisely what he says here then he has to be on the eastern side of the Divide looking down to be able to see into a ravine.
4) Another quote from Varnum in a letter to his father dated July 4th 1876 (Custer Myth).
Custer had come ahead and we could see his camp 8 miles off.
Again if he could see the camp he is on the Eastern side of the Divide.
5) Here is a quote from the Arikara narrative (Custer Myth).
The scouts had seen six Dakota Indians after Red Star and Bull had left them. Two of them had gone over the ridge down the dry coulee and four of them had ridden into the timber at the foot of the hill.
It seems to me that the use of the expression “the hill” means it was the foot of the hill on which the scouts were. This seems to be a reasonable match for the Crow’s Nest but not a good one for your location.
I think it is possible that some of the confusion e.g. Godfrey's comments might be because Custer went twice to look at the Indian village. It is possible that he went to or near your location if he wanted a different view from that he had already seen.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 27, 2006 16:27:04 GMT -6
Mike: Good for you for numbering! Makes it a lot easier. (1). Glad to hear you say you agree that it was Camp who deduced "Varnum's party" was there. Why do we have to account for another group of people standing on Crow's Nest Hill? Personally, I have no idea who they might have been, and I don't even think there was anybody at that location. Good grief, man, it was a full mile away! How could Standing Bear see people hiding behind trees? They would have to be out in the open and waving flags! How likely is that? I suspect that what we are reading is more of Walter Camp's speculation, but will admit that there could have been some people there, just as he said.
2). I didn't intentionally ignore this point, but missed it in trying to make other arguments. My theory is that they accidently missed their turnoff in the middle of the night, and when Varnum asked "Are we there yet?" they said yes. They let him know that they were at the Crows Nest and we know this because he said the Crows took him to it. Once they committed themselves, they were stuck and too embarrassed to tell Varnum that they had lied to him. I don't think that they gave a thought to concealment until those seven Sioux came right up next to them, and it was too late to run to another place. They just hunkered down. 3). Yes, I agree that Varnum saw smoke but he couldn't see the ravine, if that is your point. There was an intervening hill. As the column approached the divide, Varnum wrote "The command came into vision about this time". (Custer in '76, page 61) Actually I'm not sure about what you're getting at, Mike. Maybe you can enlighten me. You seem to put emphasis on Varnum being on the "east" side of the divide. He was actually "on" the divide, right? 4). Page 342, Myth. I have no idea what that sentence means. Halt 1 has been archaeologically identified and is about 4 miles from the divide. An above sentence tells that Varnum marched all night and "made about 60 miles." I think he meant 12 miles, not 60, unless he went to the west of the LBH river, and I don't think that is right. But whatever the correct distance, your concern is that he claims he could see Custer's camp. Well, that is impossible from either lookout site if we take him literally. However, if he was seeing smoke from Custer's camp at Halt 1, which is what he says he saw, then we can take it figuratively. But there is an important point here. You cannot see Custer's Halt 1 ANYWHERE from the traditiional CN Hill. Have you been up there to look? I have and you can't see it. 5). Ok, but Varnum explained that he saw those seven Sioux riding "along the crest of the ridge forming a divide of the stream [Davis Creek] running into the Rosebud and in the direction of that stream." (page 61) That sure can't be west, south or east of his lookout. It has to be to the north, right? Problem is the closest timber on that "ridge" is on another hill, further to the north. So I don't see how the "hill" you are talking about is the same one that the seven Sioux were seen on. There is no evidence of a forest fire up there.
AHA! So you admit that Custer went to Varnum's Lookout? Good. We're making progress. I hope that you noted my previous post where Goldin has confirmed that when they went over the divide, the Crow's Nest was to their right? I don't like Goldin either, but at least this time he doesn't have a reason to lie and invent new accomplishments. That makes his stock go up a teensy bit, but it's still not worth much in my book.
Tell me, have you read my two books? I'd be interested in your feedback.
Best regards,
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 28, 2006 17:42:50 GMT -6
Hi Vern
Sadly I have to confess that I have not read your two books. They are not generally available in UK bookstores although I understand they are on Upton's list.
I have already spent (in fact overspent) my budget for books this year so I am currently relying on the UK library system and the good offices of friends to extend my LBH knowledge. I have trawled the book database for all the libraries in my county. Whilst there seem to be a number of authors rejoicing in the name of Smalley as far as I can tell none of them are you.
Returning to our debate, my interest in Varnum being on the East side of the broad line of the Divide is that this would afford him better views down Davis Creek so that he could see smoke "in" rather than "above" the ravine of Halt 1 as he described in his letter. Perhaps I should be clearer. If you drew a straight line along the Divide to represent its average location in the vicinity of Custer's crossing point then the Crow's Nest would be on the Eastern side of that line and your proposed location would be marginally on the western side.
I know you do not like White Man Runs Him but another item of his evidence indicates that they saw Indians hunting buffalo over towards Tullock's Creek. Your location affords virtually no sight lines in that direction.
Plainly it is somewhat problematic to focus on specific words used by witnesses when they have been through a translation process as would be the case with all of the Crows and Arikara. However, I would point out that Hairy Moccasin did say that he went to the summit of the Crow's Nest on the morning of the 25th.
With respect to my "admission" that Custer went to the vicinity of your proposed spot I have to say that it is entirely possible that he did so on the second occasion that he tried to observe the village. This could certainly explain Godfrey's and Goldin's testimony which you use in your case. However, if we accept that there were two separate visits this probably weakens your arguments for the location of the first observation unless you also have evidence that Custer went to the same place twice.
Regards
Mike
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 28, 2006 22:37:02 GMT -6
Actually, two separate trips to two separate locations could make a lot of sense, I'd have thought. He'd be less, not more, likely to see anything new from Crow's Nest 1 as the heat of the day grew; no point in going there again. He'd want a more forward view, and Crow's Nest 2 ("Varnum's Lookout") would offer him that. It's logical, and reconciles the apparent conflicts. I like the idea.
Vern, I think you'll find Varnum's "sixty miles" was the total he'd ridden that day: the march on the 24th, plus a side trip with the scouts, plus finally the trip to the Crow's Nest. His estimate in this passage for the distance from Custer's June 24th camp to the Crow's Nest is "about twenty miles".
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