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Post by blaque on Oct 29, 2006 14:53:49 GMT -6
We have two battle participants saying the Crow’s Nest (i.e., Varnum’s Lookout) was to the north of the divide crossing, Godfrey and Goldin, and none, other than White Man Runs Him, telling us it was to the south. Unfortunately, WMRH was motivated to lie regarding its location. Apparently WMRH is not alone in contradicting Godfrey’s and Goldin’s opinion about the lookout being to the north or right of the trail: “General Custer notified us that he had been in the mountain to the LEFT, where our Scouts (Crows) were all the night”. Benteen’s first narrative, in Carroll's B-G Letters, p.167. I find convincing your theory on Varnum’s lookout, although I guess (like Mike & Elisabeth) that the conflicting recollections about its actual location perhaps might be explained by Custer’s having climbed more than one hill to survey the ground.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 30, 2006 15:45:37 GMT -6
Thank you, Elisabeth. I think you’re right about what Varnum meant about the 60 miles. We’ve got to read between the lines, right? Mike, what is that reference for Hairy Moccasin being at the Crow’s Nest on the morning of the 25th? Page 25 of Myth? Pages 176-177 of Custer in ‘76? Also, I don’t understand Varnum’s Lookout being west of a line that you drew. I included a map of the area at the beginning of this thread. I’d say that Varnum’s Lookout was exactly on the divide, not east or west of it. Maybe you can explain what you mean . . . . again? (Smiles). Crow’s Nest Hill is unquestionably east of the divide. Good input, blaque. Hmmm. I always have problems with people like Benteen who assume we instinctively know which direction he was facing when he wrote “left.” I think that was why I ignored the clue, maybe. So here’s another clue coming from Custer in ‘76, page 60. Varnum wrote: “They were . . . riding parallel to the ridge we were on.” That can only mean the ridge Varnum was on had some alignment that was parallel to the ridge the two Indians were on, right? How else could they be riding parallel? Crow’s Nest Hill has no such alignment. Look at the topo map at the beginning of this thread and tell me if you see any, ‘cause I don’t. However, Varnum’s Lookout is on the divide and it is parallel to a ridge about a mile away. Further evidence they were on the divide and not on Crow’s Nest Hill. Regarding Custer being at two different locations, no. Varnum was at only one location, and all of his clues are consistent. When Custer went back to his column, which was then at Halt 2, Varnum went with him and remained. Custer borrowed DeRudio’s field glasses and went back to the lookout a second time. Godfrey wrote that the two Custers returned from the lookout that was north of the divide crossing. Goldin just said the lookout was north of the divide crossing, which pretty much excludes Crow’s Nest Hill. So my question is, what evidence are you looking at that said Custer went to two different locations? I LOVE this discussion because I am learning a great deal from you folks! Thank you! Cheers! Vern Smalley
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 30, 2006 17:38:30 GMT -6
Here are two more items from Vern for your consideration.
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 30, 2006 19:27:38 GMT -6
Hi Vern
The Hairy Moccasin quote is in Dixon's The Vanishing Race page 139 although I have to confess that I saw the extract in John Gray's Custer's Last Campaign on page 231.
It is not a big issue but I place your location marginally nearer water run offs heading West than those heading East. I am happy to say your location is near enough on the Divide.
With respect to your ridge, the shape of the Crow's Nest is sufficiently elongated NNE to SSW that it could well be referred to as a ridge in its own right. There is then a clear ridge opposite and parallel to it running alongside and on the far bank of where the Davis Creek extension has turned South. It would be quite logical for the Varnum party to imagine that the two Indians riding along there might be planning to turn right through the gap and down the trail. If your location were correct then their ridge must be further West and the two Indians would have to pass quite close to Varnum's party on their way to where the trail came up the Divide and there would be no reason why Varnum and his party could not intercept them. Whereas if Varnum's party is up near the highest points on the Crow's Nest it is understandable that they could not descend in time to intercept.
With respect to the two visits for Custer theory, I think it is you that needs to find evidence that says he went to the same place twice in order that you can use Godfrey and Goldin in support of the first (Varnum) location being where you claim it to be. I think Elisabeth had a good point in suggesting that the natural thought would be that Custer might want to try a different viewing position, particularly if my theory (see other posts) is correct that he is looking for sightlines to the river to the West and SW to check for other villages.
By the way Vern I should congratulate you on keeping going against all of us who are trying to identify flaws in your theory. Having posted my own theories recently on another thread I know that it is hard work when lots of posters are coming at you with new quotes or opinions!
You have certainly convinced me that Custer probably went to your location at least once although I still tend to favour the traditional location for the first visit.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 30, 2006 21:04:29 GMT -6
First, a thank you to Diane for posting the two new pics. The top one is of topos of Varnum's Lookout (left) and West Point's "old Crow Nest" (right). In Custer in '76, page 60, Varnum wrote that being in the Montana lookout reminded him of being in the West Point site. Both were "peculiar hollows," and as you can see, they have similar shapes. My conclusion is that Varnum's Lookout, which is covered with short buffalo grass and opens to the Rosebud, is the place that he went to.
The photo, taken the end of this last August shows what it is like from the western edge of Crow's Nest Hill. The photo didn't reproduce as well as I had hoped, with all the smoke in the air from a forest fire over in Idaho. However, as you look to the north, there are hills about 20-30 miles away that are seen from here. In order for those seven Sioux to be seen "outlined against the sky" as Varnum wrote twice, they'd have to be on top of those distant hills if seen from this point. As I've said before, you have to be north of the dashed contour line as seen on my first topo map in order for them to be reasonably close, and the closest I can get them is one mile from this hill. How can the ponies be as big as elephants from a mile away?
Sorry, Mike, but your argument that there is a linear element on Crow's Nest Hill holds a similar amount of water. When looking at the topo map that I've posted, you have to be hallucinating in order to see any type of alingment, and Varnum didn't have a topo map with him. All he had was his eyeballs. There is nothing apparent on that hill that is like a ridge running north-south, and the hills that you see looking west are running north-south. I've been all around the Crow's Nest Hill on several trips, and it's bordered by a bunch of gullies. Look at the above photo and tell me if you see anything linear.
However, the divide is a very pronounced alignment, and ridges to the west of it appear to be parallel to it. If you have a photo of CN Hill taken from the divide, please post it, and point out the alignment. I know there isn't one.
Now, since you put the responsibility on my shoulders to prove Varnum and Custer went to only one lookout and not two, I'll be happy to oblige.
Varnum made only one trip to the lookout. All of his clues pertain to that one trip. All of his clues tell us he was on the divide and at the hill I've shown you. When he saw Custer coming, he went down to greet him and he led Custer back to that same lookout. Custer stayed about an hout at the lookout with Varnum, and this was the lookout that was north of the Camp marker based on all the clues Varnum left for us. When Custer went to his column at Halt 2, Varnum went with him.
On his second trip to the divide, Custer took his brother Tom with him. When they returned to Halt 2, Godfrey saw that the two Custers came from a lookout that was north of the divide crossing, i.e., the Camp marker.
Man, that cinches it, as far as I am concerned. Any evidence that convinces you that Custer went to Varnum's Lookout on the second visit is being misinterpreted, and should apply to the first visit. We know that Custer went to the lookout twice, but the only evidence that the second visit was north of the crossing is based solely on Godfrey's observation. But you would have to discount all of the clues Varnum gave us to conclude that Custer went to the CN Hill on the first trip. There are too many clues that totally eliminate CN Hill, and can be met only by Varnum's Lookout.
Now as far as my standing up to a whithering hail of comments and criticisms, I am having fun, as I hope you are. Besides that, I have the advantage of having been there several times with these exact same questions, and I hope Diane Merkel and her husband Chuck will join me next June for another expedition. Fred Wagner said he wanted to go, and I'd be happy to take a whole gaggle along with my list of clues. What a blast that would be!
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 30, 2006 21:21:24 GMT -6
ARRRRGGGGH! I have a bunch of pages here from Dixon's Vanishing Race, but not page 139. Phooey!
So, as much as I hate to do this, I'll refer to Gray's interpretation (CLC, page 231).
Mike, I don't see that Hairy Moccasin said he went to the Crow's Nest Hill on the morning of June 25.
You see, Varnum's Lookout was ALSO called the "Crow's Nest." That was why there has been all this confusion for all these years! The Crows said they were going to a POCKET in the Wolf Mountains but they went to a lookout on the divide instead, and they let Varnum think they were at the "Crow Nest," as he wrote. If we didn't have Varnum's letter that he sent to Walter Camp in 1909, we (including myself) would have thought that they went to the Crow's Nest Hill, and we would have dismissed Godfrey's and Goldin's statements as pure nonsense. When I started decoding the clues Varnum left, it became obvious (to me, at least) that we had been misled by believing White Man Runs Him. We should have been believing Varnum.
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 31, 2006 2:13:37 GMT -6
Hi Vern Thank you for posting the latest photo. I think it demonstrates the principle of riders on a nearby but lower ridge being outlined against the sky quite well. I do not know where you took the photo on the Crow's Nest but it is apparent that the phenomenon that I have talked about would take place if the photo had been taken from a somewhat lower position. At a lower level the far off mountains are no lnger visible and riders are outlined against the sky. One further point on the 7 Sioux story Varnum describes them as soon being replaced by one dot once they move after spotting evidence of Custer. If he is talking about dots they are obviously at some considerable distance from his observation point which I think reinforces the suggestion that they were 1.5 miles away when first seen but magnified by sun and shadow effects. Hairy Moccasin talks of going to the summit of the Crow's Nest, I am not sure how a pocket can have a summit surely he has to be referring to the Crow's Nest hill. In fact other accounts also speak of Custer going to a mountain which again could apply to the traditional location but not really your's. By the way I do not think you have addressed my point about the two Indians on the ridge having to pass right by any party in your location if they were going to cross the Divide by the trail. I post below my interpretation of the two parallel ridges that Varnum wrote about. Regards Mike [Modified for size -- DM]
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Post by Vern Smalley on Oct 31, 2006 14:57:18 GMT -6
Good post, Mike. Yes, I do tend to miss things from time to time. Old age, I suppose! (Smiles).
I like your GE photo, but the problem is that all the tops of those hills are covered with conifers. Varnum would have had no way to see that linearity, and that was what my point was earlier. I don't have a problem with your showing the divide is on a line, but the issue is that the two Indians were on a ridge that was parallel to Varnum's ridge and about a mile away. Your line on the divide is about 1/2 mile away from the western edge of the CN Hill. Ergo, you have proven my point. (Smiles).
As you walk by the Weibert monument and continue to the NW, you come to the edge of the forest on CN Hill. That was where I took the photo posted above.
I think I agree that the "phenomenon" you were talking about is illustrated by my photo. You have to be lower than the hills to the north in order to look up and see ponies outlined against the sky. The only way those Sioux could be seen outlined against the sky from higher elevations is if they were 20-30 miles away.
There is no way ponies 1-1/2 mile away (i.e., 2-1/2 km) are going to look as big as elephants. Personally, I have problems with them being that big even 1/3 that distance! The "spots" (not dots) Varnum wrote about referred to people, not ponies. The spots were actually the three Cheyennes that the Sioux met up with, not any of the seven Sioux. The seven Sioux didn't stick around and left the Cheyennes. Varnum speculated that it was the Sioux who appeared as spots, but it was the Cheyennes.
Magnified by sun and shadow effects? I keep forgetting that you guys over in England don't see the sun that often, right? (Smiles). I have no idea what effects you're talking about. I'm a retired chief scientist in physics, and I assure you that if Varnum saw magnified ponies, it was not a physical phenomenon. It was in his imagination. That's why I attribute it to his being very tired, the seven Sioux being very close, and his not having any place to hide.
Have you been there? As you drive up Davis Creek, it looks like you are going uphill all the way to the divide. Not being a flatlander, a "mountain" is far bigger, but for those folks who came across the plains and don't have our Rocky Mountains, I suppose it could be called a mountain. The fact that Dixon called it a mountain is hardly worthwhile evidence. It was a divide in the Wolf Mountains, so I guess technically it is a "mountain." But Crow's Nest Hill is hardly a mountain either, in my terminology. It is only slightly higher than Varnum's Lookout, and I suppose if you call one a mountain, you have to call the other a mountain, too.
There's a bit of confusion whether the two Indians did indeed cross the divide to the north, or headed back down Reno Creek. If they did cross the divide and head for Custer's column, why didn't White Swan take a shot at them? If they were anywhere near Varnum, why didn't White Swan try to intercept them? Varnum would have written about it if they really did cross the divide, but instead chose to write about the seven Sioux. We know that as Custer's column went down Reno Creek, the scouts chased those two Indians toward the river, killing the boy, so I suppose that was the way they went rather than over the divide.
Did I adequately address it, Mike?
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 31, 2006 17:22:04 GMT -6
Hi Vern
Varnum said the two Indians were riding parallel to the ridge he was on, he did not say they were opposite to him. Thus whilst the parallel lines might be .6 of a mile apart the distance between the observers and the observed can obviously be greater than that. It would make sense for the scouts to try to intercept them in this situation by getting closer to their line of travel as a shot at nearly a thousand yards would have to be pretty good. I guess the rough terrain is possibly the tree lined slopes that Varnum tries to scramble down which explains why he could not see anything.
It seems fairly clear that the two Indians do go across the Divide towards the Rosebud:
...they changed (course) again and crossed the ridge. We could see them as they went down the trail towards the command and could see a long trail of dust showing Custer was moving but we could not see the column. Before it came in sight the Sioux stopped suddenly, got together & then as suddenly disappeared...
He goes on to say that evidently the column had been discovered.
I do not see how it is possible to read this and not think the Sioux had crossed the Divide. If they are going "down" surely they must have done so and they have to be over or on the Divide to be seeing the dust column.
The question about why the scouts did not take a shot at them is really my question to you as your position sits much closer to the trail than many of the possible positions where Varnum and the others might have been on the Crow's Nest Hill. Also in your case the two Indians are initially further from the trail leading down to the Rosebud as they need to be on a ridge up to a mile from your location. It is very difficult to see how the scouts could fail to intercept them in your case.
Could you please remind me where you think the scouts' horses have been concealed. We have Standing Bear's party finding a trail from shod horses further down towards the Rosebud and deciding to follow their direction back up the Divide. After doing this he apparently looks up and sees some people in the timber on a high spot. The inference is that the trail would have lead him to look that way, but where would he have looked if he was following the trail to your location?
Regards
Mike
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Post by Vern Smalley on Nov 1, 2006 10:57:38 GMT -6
I have no idea where you’re coming from on this, Mike. Here is what Varnum stated: “They . . . were perhaps a mile off toward the Little Big Horn and riding parallel to the ridge we were on.” (Custer in ‘76, page 60).
The geometry is quite clear. There are two parallel lines separated by one mile. The Sioux were on one of those lines and Varnum was on the other.
I don’t think we can take two points covered with trees on Crow’s Nest Hill and strongly argue that is an alignment. I showed you a photo of half your “line” and it is not part of any recognizable alignment. It had to appear as an alignment to Varnum, and I am saying that it did (and does) not appear as such.
No, Mike, scrambling down a hillside to get to the smooth valley of Davis Creek does not qualify as a “half mile of hard work through very broken country.” I’ve slid down that particular slope, and the hardest part is stopping from sliding. If you call that hard work, you and I have a far different definition of work. (Smiles). Besides, where was the very broken country Varnum had to cross?
And I agree that Varnum said that the two Sioux crossed “the ridge” but I was unable to find where it says they crossed the divide. What page is that on? [Added: Yes, you are correct. Page 88, Custer's Chief of scouts]
Mike, Walter Camp injected a lot of his thoughts into his notes, and you are interpreting Camp’s thoughts as being statements by Standing Bear. Here is what Camp wrote: “From this I take it that the shod horse tracks on the old trail which they discovered was the trail of Varnum in advance of Custer.” (Custer in ‘76, page 214). Those are Camp’s words, not Standing Bear’s. Camp was trying to figure out what Standing Bear was telling him, and I think that you are on very shaky ground using Camp’s speculations as proof of anything.
The horses were were left right next to Davis Creek, just about at the point where it bends. See the topo map I started this thread with. There was a little concealment from a steep bank going down to the creek.
Now let me address those seven Sioux being outlined against the sky, just to make sure we have it resolved. In order for that to happen you have to be at a lower elevation than the seven Sioux and looking up at them, or maybe at the same elevation and looking horizontally at them. But there is absolutely no way that you can be at an elevation higher than the Sioux and have them outlined against the sky. Are we in agreement on this?
You didn’t comment about whether you agree that Custer went to the same lookout twice. Have we taken care of that one?
I’m about ready to publish all the clues for locating Varnum’s Lookout. I’m looking forward to hearing your gasps! (Smiles).
Cheers,
Vern Smalley
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Post by blaque on Nov 2, 2006 5:47:12 GMT -6
I’m about ready to publish all the clues for locating Varnum’s Lookout. I’m looking forward to hearing your gasps! (Smiles). Vern, here is an statement you don’t mention in support of your dismissing of the CN as Varnum’s lookout: “Our next resting place was in a deep depression of the valley. Custer rode some distance ahead of us and then turning to the RIGHT ascended to the highest point of the hills [i.e. up the Divide] where he must have been able to see a long distance […] then the bugle was blown for the first time for a number of days. It was a call for the officers…” (from Peter Thompson’s Account). Perhaps Custer went to the left up CN hill on his first trip (about 6 a.m. as WMRH told Gen. Scott?); then to the right and up the divide to Varnum’s lookout on his second trip, about 9 or 10. Just a guess.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Nov 2, 2006 9:39:50 GMT -6
Another good input! You guys are terrific!
At least we have a sense of direction on this clue. Custer was to the west of his column, going up Davis Creek, then went to the right (north). This is great! Can you give me a reference for citing, page number, etc? Thanks, blaque.
I have a lot of problem thinking in terms of trips to two different locations. Here's why: 1). We can discount WMRH by using his motivation to cover up the error of going to the wrong place when he was a "guide," using the argument that Red Star would have retraced his tracks when leading Custer but he didn't, and using the argument that there was insufficient time for them to fetch their horses from the east-side pocket and meet Custer on the west side. 2). All of Varnum's clues tell us he didn't go to Crow's Nest Hill, and he made only one trip to his lookout. 3). Godfrey wrote that he personally saw GAC and Tom Custer return from a lookout that was north of the crossing point.
I fully agree that Custer made two trips, but I'm 99.99% certain it was to the same lookout.
Having said that, what are the arguments that his two trips were to two different lookouts? What have I missed?
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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Post by blaque on Nov 2, 2006 19:35:48 GMT -6
At least we have a sense of direction on this clue. Custer was to the west of his column, going up Davis Creek, then went to the right (north). This is great! Can you give me a reference for citing, page number, etc? Thanks, blaque. Michael L. Wyman & Rocky L. Boyd (editors), “Peter Thompson’s Account of the Battle of the Little Bighorn: The Waddington Typescript”, p. 14. CBHMA’s 2004 Symposium. Thompson’s actual title for this typescript was “Memoirs of a Private Soldier at the Battle of the Little Big Horn, June 25, 1876”. I have a lot of problem thinking in terms of trips to two different locations. Here's why: 1). We can discount WMRH by using his motivation to cover up the error of going to the wrong place when he was a "guide," using the argument that Red Star would have retraced his tracks when leading Custer but he didn't, and using the argument that there was insufficient time for them to fetch their horses from the east-side pocket and meet Custer on the west side. This would satisfactorily explain why he lied, but it’s no proof that he did so. As our ancient laws dictate, In dubio pro reo, so let’s assume that WMRH actually went down to meet Custer at the foot of the CN hill. using the argument that Red Star would have retraced his tracks when leading Custer but he didn't, Let’s assume that RS did retrace his tracks leading Custer, but before climbing the divide the General’s attention was called by WMRH or any other scouts from the CN. Being the highest point in the neighborhood, it’s not unlikely that Custer turned left (as noticed by Benteen) to reach that superb lookout. and using the argument that there was insufficient time for them to fetch their horses from the east-side pocket and meet Custer on the west side. I think WMRH did not say that he met Custer on horseback. He told Scott that Custer “came up Davis Creek and stopped opposite the point”, then they went down to report. WMRH did specify that they climbed the hill again leading Custer on foot.
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Post by blaque on Nov 2, 2006 19:37:52 GMT -6
2). All of Varnum's clues tell us he didn't go to Crow's Nest Hill, and he made only one trip to his lookout. Yes, all those “Varnum’s clues” effectively support your theory. And one further detail, regarding the question of high/low viewing positions & elephant ponies. During their night trip towards “Custer Butte”, one of the Crows made the following description of the CN to Red Star: “a high mountain where they could see far, from it all the hills would seem to go down flat”. (Arikara Narrative, p. 87). Then no magnifying effects when viewing from the CN –at least for the Crows. 3). Godfrey wrote that he personally saw GAC and Tom Custer return from a lookout that was north of the crossing point. This was about 10 a.m., so that this only discards the CN as destination of Custer’s second trip. I fully agree that Custer made two trips, but I'm 99.99% certain it was to the same lookout. Having said that, what are the arguments that his two trips were to two different lookouts? What have I missed? No arguments yet, as I’ve not made any research comparable to yours on this subject, but I would like to believe that Custer didn’t go twice to the same lookout. If only because we would have some kind of a problem were we to discard entirely the CN. We should conclude then that many witnesses were either saying blatant lies, or were grossly mistaken in their recollection of a simple fact, when their minds were not yet clouded by the confusion of the later action. And these are the very witnesses upon whose accounts we build up our pretty, highly detailed theories! As to missing clues which may tell us of two diffferent lookouts, I’ll post tomorrow a very weak one.
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Post by Vern Smalley on Nov 2, 2006 21:16:38 GMT -6
blaque - I'll look forward to seeing your argument. What makes the second trip reasonable (to me) is that when Custer was there the first time, he had only a cheap spy glass (telescope) he borrowed from one of the Crows. Gerard also had field glasses which Custer likely borrowed, but I haven't found any record that Gerard gave them to Custer to use. So when Custer returned from Varnum's Lookout, he told that he didn't see anything. Then he learned about hostiles being in the area, and he had his adjutant borrow DeRudio's stronger-power field glasses. He went back to the same lookout, armed with better optics. Apparently he saw the pony herd on this second trip, but whatever he saw, he didn't say. He just prepared everyone for battle.
Regarding when Custer went to the lookout, Varnum said that he rode down to greet Custer. I don't know whether WMRH rode or walked, but since Varnum rode, I suspect WMRH did also. So my point was, how did they get their horses up from the east-side pocket in time to ride down to greet Custer on the west side? Doesn't make any sense to me.
blaque: Let’s assume that RS did retrace his tracks leading Custer, but before climbing the divide the General’s attention was called by WMRH or any other scouts from the CN. Being the highest point in the neighborhood, it’s not unlikely that Custer turned left (as noticed by Benteen) to reach that superb lookout.
I'm not following you on this, blaque. Are you saying that Custer headed for Varnum's Lookout (why?) but was diverted to CN Hill by the Crows by their calling him?
I thought some more about Peter Thompson seeing Custer turn to the right. If you stand at Varnum's Lookout and look back to the east, along the line of Davis Creek, there is an intervening hill. Not a big hill, but big enough to block the view of the Davis Creek valley. When Thompson saw Custer turn to the right and go up on top of a hill, he assumed that Custer could see down the Reno Creek Valley from there. That was incorrect. Custer had to ride another mile to get to the divide. What is useful about knowing Custer turning to right and going on top of the hill is that if he was going to the CN Hill, he would have turned to the left. Either right or left, Thompson couldn't have seen past that intervening hill.
Thank you for the reference citation. I thought that you were quoting Magnusson. I didn't realize it was Mike Wyman's and Rocky Boyd's paper.
Cheers!
Vern Smalley
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