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Post by shatonska on Jan 19, 2007 15:54:47 GMT -6
.... anyway let's remember the big beaver map , there is a reason if he painted soldiers charging the cheyenne camp....... shatonska (Is that white hawk? Just curious, spelling varies so. ) Can you tell me where to find that map? I'd really like to see it. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/custerslaststand.htmthe big beaver map , big beaver was a child and remained IN THE CAMP watch the two line of shod horses west of the river , the southern is the reno's retreating one , and the northern are SOLDIERS CHARGING THE VILLAGE FROM A NORTHERN FORD
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 19, 2007 16:43:41 GMT -6
More likely, the captured horses and Indians in uniform riding into the camp from the east at the north end of the village and scaring the Cheyenne women. We know that happened, and it fooled many, Indians and soldiers for two days. It's altogether possible, perhaps likely, that what people saw or heard tell of were these Indians parading like the soldiers and, if uncorrected, becoming part of the metatale. It also explains what artifacts have been found as well.
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Post by clw on Jan 19, 2007 17:41:41 GMT -6
Thanks shatonska! I see what you mean and what dc means too. Great info! Wonder why that one tipi nearest the tracks is black?
dc, can you tell me more about those artifacts? (I need an artifact map -- suggestions?)
PS Are the elevations shown on that map correct?
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 19, 2007 18:17:48 GMT -6
clw:
For arifact maps, you will need several sources:
1 Archaeological Insights Into the Custer Battle - scott and Fox 2 Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow - Weibert 3 Markers, Artifacts and Indian Testimony - Hardorff 4 Papers on Lit6tle Bighorn Battlefield Archaeology - Scott ed 5 Archaeology, History, And Custer's Last Batle - Fox 6 Custer, Cases and Cartidges - Weibert 7 Evidence And The Custer Enigma - Greene 8 Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle Of the Little Bighorn - Fox, Scott, Connor & Harmon
In no particular order. Be wary of accepting the interpretations of how the battle was fought as given by the archaeologists. Use the locations and details with caution. There has been a lot of vandalism at the battlefield over the years, particularly in the Last Stand area, where most visitors went, and from whence the most stuff was "liberated."
There may be other references, but the best maps are in these books [and aerial photos too].
Be prepared to work hard to figure things out - and don't forget about those Indian cavalry cross dressers mentioned by dc.
Gordie
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Post by shatonska on Jan 19, 2007 18:24:17 GMT -6
More likely, the captured horses and Indians in uniform riding into the camp from the east at the north end of the village and scaring the Cheyenne women. We know that happened, and it fooled many, Indians and soldiers for two days. It's altogether possible, perhaps likely, that what people saw or heard tell of were these Indians parading like the soldiers and, if uncorrected, becoming part of the metatale. It also explains what artifacts have been found as well. i'm not convinced , shod horses charge the northern camp (CLW the black teepee i think stand for the cheyenne camp , big beaver people ) and RECROSS the river ending on last stand hill like having been repulsed , no sense for big beaver to paint a parade or similar plus remember various accounts at the rcoi , soldiers heard fire and saw smoke and a great mess in the village at the mt ford plus soldiers in the wood i think it is a possibiliy like others , just a possibility
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Post by clw on Jan 19, 2007 21:14:44 GMT -6
Gordie ~ Good grief and God help me. Don't suppose any of that stuff is online somewhere?
shatonska ~ Is there a source for this Big Beaver information? I was thinking about those horses being shod too.
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Post by Melani on Jan 19, 2007 23:50:28 GMT -6
Did anyone talk about soldiers IN the village besides Big Beaver?
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 20, 2007 1:47:52 GMT -6
Melani:
I wouldn't claim to have seen every source, but I have never heard of any group of soldiers getting into the village and being repulsed. I think there are a couple of conjectures about a trooper crossing at MTC ford and being killed in the camp there, and there is the same about a dead trooper having been found opposite Deep Ravine ford. Those bodies can be explained as having been dragged there [or even not having been there at all].
Gordie
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 20, 2007 4:30:54 GMT -6
There's also the Sturgis question: no body found, but enough of his garments to suggest they were taken from his body in the village. (But again, he could have been dragged there.)
Both Benteen and Reno, from their first viewing of the field, formed the impression that at least a part of Custer's force had crossed into the village. Reno was even quite specific about which companies he thought it was -- C, E and I -- though unfortunately for us, he didn't give his reasons. I think Gibbon also says something about a crossing. Of course they could have been misled by the tracks of shod horses either driven by Indian captors or ridden by the Cheyenne pantomime party, but they must have seen something to base their opinion on ...
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Post by shatonska on Jan 20, 2007 6:40:00 GMT -6
Gordie ~ Good grief and God help me. Don't suppose any of that stuff is online somewhere? shatonska ~ Is there a source for this Big Beaver information? I was thinking about those horses being shod too. i have read something from big beaver , maybe in lakota noon , i remember that he only said that he was a child and that he went on the battlefield after the end of the fight , nothing else cheyenne soon after the fight and later spoke of the fight at the northern ford , maybe part of the companies crossed there and part alted because custer was wounded , warriors had to be very few at that ford melani soldiers in the wood believed soldiers were in the village fighting and going toward them , now we believe they heard fire from nye or cahloun , but , if fire came form that direction there is WEIR POINT to stop the sound and cahloun is to far to be heard in that depression among the trees with other small hill to stop the noise plus soldiers accounts at the rcoi (or Camp's notes ?), maybe someone can find clues on the online version , i don't , to difficoult to search , but i remember those accounts puzzled me very much soldiers just arrived on reno hill heard fire at the river and saw a great mess in the village with warriors galopping in circle and firing (if i recall well ) just a possibility
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 20, 2007 9:51:03 GMT -6
What specific artifacts were found, and precisely where, I have no clue, only that there is supposed evidence of Army activity at or near or possibly towards this hypothesized northern ford.
We know the cross-dressing warriors did this routine from Army and Indian sources, so it makes not much sense to conjure up a whole new episode when you'd need to exclude the known one first. Especially one that covers all the known evidence you need for the new hysteric implausibility. We have Indian accounts of warriors shedding unwanted baubles as they rode along on their new mounts, which might well explain the artifacts as found.
In any case, supporters of The Great Northern Journey have to exclude this possibility before offering the absurdities they have. They just ignore it, as people do when considering the time it would take for Indians to re-accessorize their ensemble with new clothing, new horse, get organized with a guidon, ride in formation, turn as one and all that. Because by the time Weir saw this activity at Weir Point, the battle had to have been well over. Nobody is going to get into that stuff while their buddies are dicing with death polishing off the soldiers to inquire if the kerchief looks "too busy," sitting still on captured mounts, presenting easy targets.
The battle was well over by the time Weir hit his peak. The soldiers in the village and way up north were the cross-dressers, until actual evidence discounts it.
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Post by clw on Jan 20, 2007 12:58:22 GMT -6
I haven't seen anything yet that makes me believe any soldiers made the crossing. Althought I did stop and think about that map. I'm just trying to find some clues about possible collateral damage in the Cheyenne camp. It just seems very possible they could have been in the line of fire at some point, but I'm no ballistics expert. The biggest question in my mind is that the women and children should have been gone by the time any action came near them. Yes?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 20, 2007 19:02:19 GMT -6
There's also the Sturgis question: no body found, but enough of his garments to suggest they were taken from his body in the village. (But again, he could have been dragged there.)
I just purchased a copy of Custer's Field: " A Scene of Sickening Ghastly Horror" By Francis B. Taunton. I don't know anything about the author.
"Young Sturgis? His head was in Indian Village!" The source was LT Charles A Varnum disclosed at the 50th Regiment Reunion at the Battlefield.
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Post by clw on Jan 21, 2007 9:13:56 GMT -6
Just curious.... were there any troopers unaccounted for.... MIA?
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Post by Scout on Jan 21, 2007 19:33:49 GMT -6
Some eighteen enlisted men were supposedly unaccounted for ...and three officers. But accounts differ on who was found and who wasn't. The ones in deep ravine were probably not....due to the condition and odor. The battlefield had to be horrific after three days in high 90's to 100 degree temps.
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