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Post by Realbird on Jan 13, 2007 20:08:39 GMT -6
Tom Custer was the object of someone's incredible wrath. Why? I believe he was still alive when the hill was taken
Scout, I could not agree with you more. Indian statements make reference to the fact that wounded troopers were the recipients of special attention from many relatives of warriors, women. and children, who died at the hands of the troopers. Does the name " Washita" ring a bell?
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 14, 2007 7:40:52 GMT -6
Could be ...
A popular variant on the Monahsetah story is that her second child might have been Tom's -- Custer presumably having "passed her on" to Tom once Libbie came back on the scene. He wasn't known for treating his women all that well, and was definitely disrespectful towards her (the "Sallie Ann" gibe). So maybe she and other post-Washita captives had a score to settle with him over that?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 14, 2007 11:11:23 GMT -6
Scout, I could not agree with you more. Indian statements make reference to the fact that wounded troopers were the recipients of special attention from many relatives of warriors, women. and children, who died at the hands of the troopers. Does the name "Washita" ring a bell?
Since they didn't know Custer was there, it likely they didn't know who Tom was either. He probably took a few out before he died and this was revenge.
Indians did not need atrocities by particular individuals to perform them on that individual nor did the whites.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 14, 2007 13:02:32 GMT -6
The stories about Bouyer, and I think I've seen most of them, would be more compelling were it not for Gibbon's account mentioning seeing the body of a scout along the SSL area, and the identification of part of Bouyer's skull, found in the same area by the archaeologists in whenever it was.
Gordie
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Post by clw on Jan 14, 2007 16:50:50 GMT -6
I don't remember if I heard this or read this..... but it was said somewhere that after Washita and Sand Creek, even the Lakota tried to hold the Cheyenne in check their wrath was so great. And the oral history tabulates 38 Cheyenne women and children killed near Medicine Tail ford -- I know the ford was never crossed, this was "collateral damage". I suspect the Cheyenne had a lot to do with the mutilations. Mutilation of the dead vs. the deaths of women (please not squaws) and children? Hmmmm. Hard to judge who is more uncivilized. And lest we overlook our own behavior, let's not forget Chivington.
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Post by Scout on Jan 14, 2007 17:16:36 GMT -6
clw...just remember the Indians were capable of spinning tall tales as well as the whites. Never heard anything about 38 women and children killed at MTC. No Indian accounts of the time. Soldiers never got near the river there.
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Post by clw on Jan 14, 2007 18:09:10 GMT -6
You're absolutely right...... and they still are!
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Post by Realbird on Jan 14, 2007 18:14:17 GMT -6
And the oral history tabulates 38 Cheyenne women and children killed near Medicine Tail ford
And lest we overlook our own behavior, let's not forget Chivington.
I don't recall reading of such a large number of Indian women and children being killed near MTC. It has been suggested that several of the Arikara (Ree) scouts targeted a group of women and children, afoot, during Reno's initial charge.
"With Little Sioux there was Red Star, Strikes Two, and Boy Chief. As they stood there together looking across the river they saw at the foot of the ridge three women and two children coming across the flat running and hurrying along as best they could, on a slant towards the river. Little Sioux fired twice at them and so did red Star. then all four of the scouts rode through the timber toward the river to kill them. but just at this point, they saw across the river a large heard of about two hundred Dakota horses in the sage bush, so they stopped pursuing pursuing the women and children and started after the horse." The Arikara Narrative, page151
In summation I would like to make a couple of points. Raised to live off the bounty of the earth and, being skilled hunters the scouts who shot at the fleeing non-combatants probably hit their targets. The count may have been higher than they admitted. whatever the count, the probability that they killed them all is probable.
Gall reported that his wives and children were killed by the soldiers and it made his "heart bad." Undoubtedly, an unknown number of women and children were slain.by the scouts and, Reno's volley of fire into the southern portion of the village. regarding chiving ton he personifies unspeakable outrages during the course of battle, on both sides.
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Post by clw on Jan 14, 2007 18:24:07 GMT -6
OK. I'm going to jump off a cliff here and present a technical argument. I have the McElfresh map. I measured the distance from the point where Butler was killed (forget I used the MT word, it always gets me in trouble) and the Cheyenne camp. Then I measured the distance from Reno's skirmish line to the Hunkpapa camp. The two distances are very similar, but civilians could be killed in one camp and not the other?
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 14, 2007 19:20:59 GMT -6
Are you suggesting that Butler killed them? Or that a skirmish line of troops fired into the Cheyenne circle from that same vicinity? [Assuming that the McElfresh map is accurate - I have never seen it except in ads]. In either case, what evidence do you have, aside from similar distances?
I spent a summer living on the rez at Busby, and went over the battlefield and environs with Cheyenne men all summer, and I never heard any stories of 38 women and children having been killed during the fighting. I remember one man claiming that there had been two or three noncombatant casuatlies; but nobody seemed to think those kind of casualties were of particular significance [except to the families, of course].
Gordie
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Post by clw on Jan 14, 2007 19:49:33 GMT -6
No! I'm not suggesting Butler killed them. I don't even know if they WERE killed. I'm merely suggesting that if there was offensive action in areas equidistant from both camps the possibility exists.
Your visit with the Cheyenne makes a good point.
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Post by shatonska on Jan 15, 2007 9:08:21 GMT -6
crow scouts fired in the indian camp too (the miniconjou one ,considering the souce position of the firing)but that number is exagerated for me , there is no need to hide such facts , anyway let's remember the big beaver map , there is a reason if he painted soldiers charging the cheyenne camp , we still surely miss some important facts ,facts never told and covered by lies , especially the cheyennes lied and mislead for very good reasons i think , they had learned the lesson
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 16, 2007 10:26:26 GMT -6
I believe the number of non-coms killed by the Rees was around 10 . . . I don't think that included Gall's family.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 16, 2007 10:28:37 GMT -6
And of course there is Rain-in-the-Face who was arrested by TC. RITF swore vengenace against TC. If RITF did commit the mutiliations he would never admit it to "outsiders."
It may have been a "big" thing among the Indians but to admit that to whites would not have been very wise . . . and Indians realized that once on the Rez . . . only tell the White Man what he wants to hear.
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Post by clw on Jan 19, 2007 14:47:18 GMT -6
.... anyway let's remember the big beaver map , there is a reason if he painted soldiers charging the cheyenne camp....... shatonska (Is that white hawk? Just curious, spelling varies so. ) Can you tell me where to find that map? I'd really like to see it.
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