Roman Nose picture?

[Frank]

That Rattling Runners shirt is so gay... ;D ..no offence to anyone ofcourse it's just me and my Finnish mentality...

[Dietmar]

Honestly, my impression is that Henry Cross took the 1851 delegation photograph of the Cheyenne Little Chief (posted in another thread), who was often misidentified as Roman Nose) and made his own painting from it. Hence the feather bonnet. He changed a little bit to make his face more aggressive and added the knife or sabre instead of Little Chief´s pipe. That’s all.

[charlie]

If interest to anyone, i have just discovered that ROMAN NOSE belonged to O'MI'SIS (Eater) band of Northern Cheyenne. Until today, i known that him belonged to the war Society of HIMOIYOQIS (Crooked Lances), but i did't known his band of birth.

[gary]

Hi Charlie

What's your source for Roman Nose's band?

[charlie]

Yes, Gary. This is the site: www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/recordDetail?accno=EJ397018
I hope this is a serious source!

[Dietmar]

Ciao Charlie,

yes you are right, Roman Nose was a Northern Cheyenne and also a member of the Crooked Lance or Elkhorn Scraper Society. The original source is George Bent, who was himself a member of the Crooked Lances:

Roman Nose was the most famous Cheyenne warrior of his day. Although Little Wolf (Okohm-ha-ket), or Little Coyote, had counted more coups, he was not as widely known as Roman Nose. As a boy Roman Nose was called Sautie (the Bat); but when he became a warrior he was given the name Woqini, meaning Hook Nose, which the whites always interpreted as Roman Nose. He had two brothers and one sister; only one of these is still living, a brother, Cut Hair, now at the Tongue River Agency. Contrary to the general opinion, Roman Nose was never a chief, nor was he even the head man of any of the soldier societies. He was a member of the Hi-moi-yo-qis, or Crooked Lance Society, so called from the peculiar lance carried by the leader. (…)
In the summer of 1866 he had come south with Black Shin´s Sutaio and Gray Beard´s band of Dog Soldiers and he never went north again. He liked the Dog Soldiers, who were the wildest and most aggressive fighters in our tribe, and he continued to live with them until his death.
from: Life of George Bent by George E. Hyde, University of Oklahoma Press 1968 pp 306/307

Dietmar

[gary]

Thanks for the feedback Charlie.

[stan]

JUST COME ACROSS THIS PORTRAIT BIT DISAPOINTED WITH IT IM SURE " I HOPE "THE GREAT CHIEF DID NOT LOOK LIKE THIS ?IM SURE HE WORE A WAR BONNET WITH ONE BUFFALO HORN? STAN

[Dark Cloud]

Why is his name translated Roman Nose? What does it actually mean, given Cheyenne northern or southern would not be read on ancient European history, nor care? Secondly, when did Romans become famous for large or distinctive noses anyway, since their sculpture doesn't particularly indicate this?

[fred]

Darkcloud--

Maybe it was the polite bastardization of "roamin'."

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

I've read that the literal translation was "hooked nose", which the whites then transformed accordingly. Why is another matter. Sculptures of Caesar, Brutus et al.[/] show aquiline rather than snub noses; not a big problem, really.

[gary]

I note that Frank contributed to this thread nearly a year ago. I corresponded with him by e-mail recently and he asked me to pass on his greetings. He has been very busy over the last year, but has not forgotten us!

[brock]

I would say Fred is right. I asked that very question of the Clown family about two years ago and they told me, at least in the Lakota culture that those named Roman Nose were really Roaming Nose. One of their relatives, Frog had the nickname Roaming Nose but was translated as Roman Nose. They said it was a nickname they gave to those that went around visiting camps and the different families in them. They would say "He's a Roaming Nose"...translators would pick up on this. Transcribers must have misspelled it.

[gary]

That's interesting, Brock. Does it mean that he was nosey, or does it not have any negative connotations?

[brock]

Gary,
No negative connotations. The Lakota actually like to joke (I would say one could make a case they like to joke more than most other cultures) and you're not really accepted until you've been joked about...as weird as that might sound. It is something that all the families that I am dealing with claim is missing from the translations is the humor...the sarcasm...the poking fun at someone's habits. They claim everything is translated so rigidly and seriously that they tend to get off track once it's written down...they lose a large amount of the liveliness with which the lines were originally delivered. I must say after spending so much time with them that I tend to agree with them. If you can't take being the butt of a joke...and be able to dish it back, then you'll have a real uphill climb being accepted into the Lakota community...and I'm afraid that most of what's been recorded does not reflect that...or is not allowed to reflect it in much of the research that has been done.