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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 5:37:09 GMT -6
Post by grahamew on Aug 15, 2006 5:37:09 GMT -6
Slow Bull, I think. And, yeah, I'm always amazed when a publishing company that's one of the leaders in the field of research into Native Americans lets this sort of thing slip - but it's not a one off!
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 7:26:34 GMT -6
Post by ephriam on Aug 15, 2006 7:26:34 GMT -6
I would agree that writers and sometimes publishers are often not very careful about double-checking images and their identification. In the example of the misidentified portrait of He Dog published by Hardorff, he obtained the portrait from Bourke's diary at West Point where Bourke himself mislabeled Slow Bull's portrait as He Dog. Hardorff just did not compare this image against other known images and took Bourke's identification at face value. Incidentally, the portrait of Slow Bull is part of a series of images taken by D. S. Mitchell at the Red Cloud Agency in the fall of 1877.
Second, I am not aware of any identified photographs of Short Bull (He Dog's brother). I have been recently in contact with the great-grandson of Short Bull and they do not have any photographs either. Unfortunately, Short Bull and much of his family were killed in a tragic car accident in 1935 so much of the family oral history was lost.
Kingsley may be right that Short Bull and his nephew Amos Bad Heart Bull could be in the photograph, though I am not certain how we can demonstrate that without another identified photograph. Amos did serve a sixth month stint as an Indian scout at Fort Robinson beginning in March 1894 (under the name Eagle Lance), joining his uncle Short Bull who was by then serving his seventh enlistment including several years at Fort Robinson. The timing would be right for them to be in the photograph.
Finally, someone asked about the meaning of the silver crosses visible in a number of Cheyenne and Lakota portraits. I recently wrote an article, "German Silver Crosses in Lakota Attire: Personal Adornment or Symbols of Tribal Leadership?" in the March/April 2005 issues of Whispering Winds that looked at these interesting items. I listed every known image or surviving example of these crosses (I have since located additional ones) and tried to argue that they may represent some office or leadership role among the Lakota. (Sorry for the shameless self-promotion!) Here is the concluding paragraph:
"In summary, the available evidence suggests that the Great Plains metal crosses originated within the southwestern silverwork industry and then spread successively northward, first to the Apache, Comanche and Kiowa, and then to the Southern Cheyenne and Northern Cheyenne by the 1860's and the Lakota by the 1870's. These ornaments declined in popularity during the two decades that followed. The Big Road Roster suggests that rather than just ornamentation, the German silver crosses worn by the Lakota during the 1870's may have had some cultural significance, the meaning of which has unfortunately become lost. The evidence is admittedly far from conclusive, but perhaps one day, additional sources will be found that may shed light on the meaning of these intriguing elements of Lakota material culture."
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 9:02:33 GMT -6
Post by shan on Aug 15, 2006 9:02:33 GMT -6
grahamew and ephriam,
yes I thought it might be Slow Bull myself. The trouble is that the rot goes on, so that if one book gives a false name then a number of other books simply ape it. I have just come across that same image of Slow Bull in Pine Ridge Reservation by Donovin Arleigh Sprague, an author who really ought to know better. Incidently ephriam, can I be cheeky and ask if you have you come across any further information or references to Low Dog since that last burst of corrospondance in the Low Dog post some time back. Shan
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 10:18:47 GMT -6
Post by Dietmar on Aug 15, 2006 10:18:47 GMT -6
There is a photograph of a man called Short Man in "Lakota Society" by James R. Walker. He was also named Short Bull No.2 (Tatanka Ptecela) and resided on White Clay district at Pine Ridge. He was born ca. 1847. Could this be the brother of He Dog? Short Man/Bull. Photographer and date unrecorded. Dietmar P.S.: Ephriam, you wrote you have seen other photographs by McBride. Do you know where to find them and are there other group scenes like the one in this thread? Thank you.
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 12:31:42 GMT -6
Post by Dietmar on Aug 15, 2006 12:31:42 GMT -6
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 13:10:45 GMT -6
Post by grahamew on Aug 15, 2006 13:10:45 GMT -6
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agnes
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 14:02:21 GMT -6
Post by agnes on Aug 15, 2006 14:02:21 GMT -6
Dear Graham!
Many thanks to You for the link of the Marquette University! What photos!! Many Cartridges (possibly the son of Little Hawk), Silas Fills the Pipe, Joseph He Dog, Jake White Cow Killer, Flying Hawk and many more.... Thanks!!!
Sincerely: Agnes
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agnes
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 14:06:15 GMT -6
Post by agnes on Aug 15, 2006 14:06:15 GMT -6
Hello, Agnes! It's nice to have you with us again. I'm afraid I don't know anything about the shirt. I've just helped others post their photos. I'm sure they can answer your questions. Best wishes, Diane Dear Diane! It does not matter, I'm sanguine. And I'm thankful for the photo! Sincerely: Agnes
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 16:34:01 GMT -6
Post by grahamew on Aug 15, 2006 16:34:01 GMT -6
Glad to be of some help.
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He Dog
Aug 15, 2006 19:20:54 GMT -6
Post by ephriam on Aug 15, 2006 19:20:54 GMT -6
Dietmar:
I have great respect for Dr. DeMallie's work, however, I believe he is incorrect in his identification of Short Man. There appears to have actually been two Oglala by this name, based on the census records, perhaps brothers. The older Short Man was born about 1847, as DeMallie notes. I can track him through the 1886-1890 census records. By 1894, however, a younger man is now known as Short Man, born about 1860, who I can then track forward through at least 1915. I have not indexed the census records between 1890 and 1894 yet, so I cannot tell you what happened, but I believe we are dealing with two different men.
Dr. Walker was at Pine Ridge from 1896 to 1914 and he obtained the Short Man wintercount in 1913. This would seem to suggest that he was dealing with the young Short Man.
Dr. DeMallie also noted in the back of his book Lakota Society that Short Man was also known as Short Bull #2, however, I believe that this is also incorrect. In the Pine Ridge Agency census records, Short Bull #1 and #2 are consisently referring to the already well-discussed men: Grant Short Bull (c1852-1935), brother of He Dog; and Arnold Short Bull (c1845-1923) of Ghost Dance Fame. I have never found a reference giving an alternate name for Short Man as Short Bull.
Regarding McBride photographs, I unfortunately do not have copies of any others. But if my memory serves, I saw several examples in the archives of the Nebraska State Historical Society some years ago. Sorry.
ephriam
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He Dog
Aug 16, 2006 10:13:29 GMT -6
Post by Dietmar on Aug 16, 2006 10:13:29 GMT -6
Here we go again. Once again incorrect information about those indian photographs... Thank you for answering Ephriam. In the meantime I found a photo of Short Man by Gertrud Käsebier from 1898 which shows the same Short Man as shown above. He looks even younger in it, so he most probably is not the Short Bull we are looking for. One more comment on the McBride photo: As you know John Colhoff listed the Pine Ridge bands and their leaders in 1949. For the White Clay district there are: 1. Hoka Yuta (Badger Eaters) Thunder Tail 2. Cankahuhán (Saw Backs(aka Sore Backs)) He Dog 3. Unpan Gleska (Spotted Elk band) Spotted Elk 4. Siksikela (Hostiles) Red Horn Bull 5. Tatanka Numpa (Two Bulls band) or Ogla Luta (Red Shirt band) Two Bulls and Red Shirt As there are two of these leaders (He Dog and Spotted Elk) in the photograph, maybe there are more of these men pictured? By the way, I am still not totally convinced that it is Hollow Horn Bear in the photo. He should be more likely at Spotted Tail agency than at Fort Robinson. Best regards Dietmar
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He Dog
Aug 16, 2006 12:48:46 GMT -6
Post by hans54 on Aug 16, 2006 12:48:46 GMT -6
Great discussion, thanks for the interesting contributions regarding He Dog & family. Let me chime in.
The McBride photo was first (I guess) published in 1976, without any identification, by the Nebraska State Historical Society, illustrating their fascinating "Oglala Sources On The Life Of Crazy Horse", the Eleanor Hinman interviews. But it became soon clear that this was a portrait of He Dog and his family and followers. I am convinced that the small man in the suit (second from left) is indeed He Dog's brother, Grant Short Bull. I have two other portraits of him for comparison (both Nebraska State Historical Society). The first, taken ca.1920, depicts him standing in full Indian attire together with an old friend of the Red Cloud family, Captain James H. Cook. The second image is a 1933 group photo of the Red Cloud family and friends. Short Bull is identified as the small man holding a large beaded tobacco bag, standing quite in the middle between James Red Cloud and Lone Man (eighth person from the left).
In a former discussion "Buffaloman" Bob B. ascertained that the published NSHS photo (attached) is slightly different from the eBay photo. So McBride took at least two successive views of the He Dog group.
What about the young man standing right behind He Dog, sporting a cowboy hat and a large bandana? I always loved to think that this was He Dog's artist nephew/son, Amos Bad Heart Bull. Of course I can't offer any proof. But didn't he portray himself much like this in his drawings?
Finally, Dietmar, I don't think that Hollow Horn Bear is in the photo.
Hans Karkheck
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He Dog
Aug 16, 2006 14:31:59 GMT -6
Post by ephriam on Aug 16, 2006 14:31:59 GMT -6
Hans:
Do you have negative numbers for the two Short Bull images you are referring to? I have not seen them before and would like to look them up. Thanks!
ephriam
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He Dog
Aug 16, 2006 16:17:58 GMT -6
Post by grahamew on Aug 16, 2006 16:17:58 GMT -6
Could you, perhaps, scan them and email them to Diane to post?
And, yeah, I thought that about Hollow Horn Bear too, but I DID think he looked like the man in the McBride photo. Oh, well...
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He Dog
Aug 16, 2006 16:28:32 GMT -6
Post by hans54 on Aug 16, 2006 16:28:32 GMT -6
--- Could you, perhaps, scan them and email them to Diane to post? ---
Already done so!
No negative numbers available, Ephriam.
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