What happened to Touch the Clouds?

[shatonska]

diane , those two photos are not of the same man , the second is not ttc clearly ,
the first photo seen in whole shows that the man is a big man even if you see him sitted , surely was not a giant but a tall man

[Dietmar]

Diane, I believe the photo by Rinehart is Touch-the-Cloud. Well, that´s my opinion.
In 1898 - of course - he looks older and his hairstyle and dress had changed. But please compare the nose, mouth and the high cheekbones. Also take a look at the photo by Bell in 1877.

What do you think?

Dietmar

[crzhrs]

Touch-the-Clouds is the Indian on the left that I have seen the photo of. The right photo does appear to have a resemblance to the one on the left, but still had to tell.

I just checked on-line for any sources of info on T-T-C.

According to Dr. McGillicuddy, who treated Crazy Horse for his wounds, he stated that "the seven-foot Touch-the-Clouds picked up Crazy Horse and brought him into the office."

[crzhrs]

If you look at the photo of T-T-C sitting and holding a rifle and a revolver, you will see that he has wide shoulders and chest, very sinewy and lean. The photo of the the Indian couple shows the man with narrow shoulders and chest, and somewhat stocky.

[shatonska]

crzhrs said:

If you look at the photo of T-T-C sitting and holding a rifle and a revolver, you will see that he has wide shoulders and chest, very sinewy and lean. The photo of the the Indian couple shows the man with narrow shoulders and chest, and somewhat stocky.

yes i gave 5% possibilities of being the same man , to be good !
7 feet is to much but that was a big man , the photo where he is sitted with the rifle is clear

[Diane Merkel]

I'm with Dietmar on this. Of all the photos on Page 2 of this thread, only one makes TTC appear tall, and that when he's sitting! The features on the headshots match up very well.

[Dietmar]

Thank you Diane, I think you must not compare muscles and wide shoulders in this case. The older photographs were made around 1876/1877, the Rinehart photo in 1898. That´s a difference of 21 or 22 years. Maybe Touch-the-Cloud was in his fifties or sixties at that time.

Does anyone know how long TTC lived?

Dietmar

[Dietmar]

Sorry, just found it myself. Richard Hardorff states:

"The son of Lone Horn, Touch the Cloud was born in 1837, and became a Minneconjou leader upon his father´s death in 1875. (...) He died on the Cheyenne River Reservation on September 5, 1905."

That means, he was 40 years old in 1877 and 61 years in 1898.

Dietmar

[crzhrs]

The Rinehart photo depicts a man that does not appear to be 61. Since living in the open and under the sun the Indians's skin became wrinkled quicker due to the elements and this man looks still rather young.

[charlie]

Can anyone help me? The first chief (with pipe) seated at left in the first photo (of two) of delegation 1877 (at page 2 of this thread) is really PAWNEE KILLER or not? It seems that him did't was present in that occasion...Thanks.

[jinlian]

This is the Indian Charlie is referring to:



The identification as "Pawnee Killer" comes from the Smithsonian archives, but, on the other hand, nor James Olson (in "Red Cloud and the Sioux Problem") lists him among the 1877 delegates neither the NY Times issue of October 5 1877 names him as a delegation member (article is available here: query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9C07EEDF173EE73BBC4D53DFB667838C669FDE&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

The legend below te picture of the full delegation taken at the Corcoran Gallery doesn't mention Pawnee Killer either.

Can anyone solve this enigma? Who's the mysterious Indian, after all?

[ephriam]

Good morning, Jinlian:

You are correct -- Pawnee Killer was not a member of the 1877 delegation to Washington, D.C. We have a great portrait of him from the fall of 1877, taken at the Red Cloud Agency by D. S. Mitchell. Admittedly, these two individuals look similiar, but this is not him.

The original photograph, in which our mysterious individual appears, was taken by Mathew Brady in D.C. in the fall of 1877. This particular photograph appears to include only members of the delegation from the Spotted Tail Agency, so that should narrow down our list of possibilities.

We can identify with some degree of certainty the majority of people in that image:

Standing, from left to right: Joseph Merrivail, interpreter; Spotted Tail Jr., Touch the Clouds, Hollow Horn Bear, either White Tail or Good Voice; and Billy Garnett, interpreter (the only individual in the image from the Red Cloud Agency).

Seated, from left to right: our mysterious person, Ring Thunder (maybe?), Spotted Tail, unidentified, Little Hawk (not Crazy Horse's uncle from the Red Cloud Agency who did not go on the delegation trip; this Little Hawk was the son of the Brule headman Two Stike), and finally Swift Bear.

So, by the process of elimination, assuming that our identifications of the other individuals are accurate, that leaves the following possibilities: Red Bear (my favorite at this point), Good Voice or White Tail (depending upon the correct identification of the guy standing in the back). In comparing a Cross portrait of Good Voice, I do not think that is him. So...

And just to add a bit more to the mystery, there is one other Brule whose name appears in the Corcoran Gallery photograph but does not appear in any of the lists of delegation attendees: Black Crow. I have not been able to find out if in fact he was there or whether this was an error. Perhaps he was like George Sword, in D.C. with the Cody show or something else and not officially part of the delegation? I do not know.

ephriam

[jinlian]

Thanks Ephraim, for your long and detailed answer, but now I'm a little lost...I believed that the third Indian standing (the one you've identified with Hollow Horn Bear) was Young Man Afraid. Hollow Horn Bear would have been 27 years old at the time, and the man here looks (to me, of course, I don't claim to be 100% right!) somewhat older.

One curiosity about the interpreter: I believed him to be Antoine Janis (also appearing in the picture of the Oglala delegation members below, sitting, second from left)



A larger (and with a better resolution) image of the Corcoran gallery picture would be very helpful indeed....

Thanks again for all your help,

Jin.

[hako]

May be this one? imagesvr.library.upenn.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?type=detail&cc=pennmuseum&entryid=X-dd2000-02257&viewid=1&sstrt=91&hits=122&q1=sioux&cat1=All%20Categories&thsz=12&txsz=50&slsz=1&med=&quality=extra%20large&ts=&c=pennmuseum

[jinlian]

Thanks, hako, that's the image I used to identify Antoine Janis.

Can anybody help with the Corcoran one? Best version I found on the web is this one: