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Post by jinlian on Apr 16, 2008 10:50:17 GMT -6
And just to add a bit more to the mystery, there is one other Brule whose name appears in the Corcoran Gallery photograph but does not appear in any of the lists of delegation attendees: Black Crow. I have not been able to find out if in fact he was there or whether this was an error. Perhaps he was like George Sword, in D.C. with the Cody show or something else and not officially part of the delegation? I do not know. ephriam Well, I suppose Black Crow, being Spotted Tail's son-in-law, had chances better than other Indians' to join the delegation. Here's one picture of Black Crow I know of:
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Post by Dietmar on Apr 16, 2008 11:47:44 GMT -6
Hello all,
just a short comment on the Rosebud delegation photo:
I have the man standing between Hollow Horn Bear and Billy Garnett as White Tail (compare to the 1868 Gardner photo at Ft. Laramie).
Ring Thunder is indeed sitting second from left and the man sitting between Spotted Tail and Little Hawk is Good Voice.
So I think Red Bear is pretty close, Ephriam.
Dietmar
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Post by jinlian on Apr 16, 2008 12:21:52 GMT -6
Thanks a lot, Dietmar! By the way, it's good to see both Ephriam and you back!
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Post by ephriam on Apr 17, 2008 0:00:34 GMT -6
Jinlian: The individual you are referring to I think is definately Hollow Horn Bear. I am attaching a photo comparison. In the center, is the individual in question. On the left is a closeup of Young Man Afraid, taken by Brady at the very same time as our original photo in question. Not only are they not wearing the same clothes (including YMA's ever present German silver cross), but their face structure is not the same. Now compare him to the image on the right. This one is a view of Hollow Horn Bear taken in early 1878 by Cross. I think they look nearly identical. As to the question of whether the elderly white man in the image is Janis or Merrivail, that is open to question. Please note that the original glass plate negative at the National Archives has no identification on it; the names on the Smithsonian reprint of the National Archives image were supplied by Harry Anderson and other historians. However, these is another original print of this image in the South Dakota Historical Society in the Charles Jordan Collection. On that image, this individual is identified as Merrivail. Given the fact that Jordan knew these people, I give greater weight to his identification. So with the additions from Dietmar above, it appears the full identification of this image is: Delegation from the Spotted Tail Agency, in Washington, D.C., by Mathew Brady, Sept.-Oct. 1877. Standing, from left to right: Joseph Merrivail, Spotted Tail Jr., Touch the Clouds, Hollow Horn Bear, White Tail and William Garnett. Seated, from left to right: Red Bear, Ring Thunder, Spotted Tail, Good Voice, LIttle Hawk and Swift Bear. ephriam
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Post by jinlian on Apr 17, 2008 2:12:39 GMT -6
Thanks Ephraim, unfortunately, for some reason, I can't view the images in your message, only the html tags. I can provide the Young Man Afraid and "Hollow Horn" close-ups, but I don't know that Cross picture of Hollow Horn and I've no idea of any webplace where it can be retrieved. Young Man Afraid has on that big silver cross, but it's an easy-to-remove item (by the way, I think that, taking these picture, items where "exchanged" among delegation members. I wonder, for instance, if the shirt worn by Little Wound and American Horse in their individual portraits wasn't in fact the same...). I'd like to see, for instance, if the individual identified as Hollow Horn had on the big earrings Young Man has on in many of his pictures. As for Antoine Janis/Joseph Merrivail, if Eli Ricker is correct in his statement that "he began roaming in the West in 1841" , he would have been about 60 in 1877, just as the man in the pic. However, I'd trust better Charles Jordan's identification but is it sure that he was the one who did it, and not, for instance, his son? Thank you very much again (and thanks to Dietmar as well) for all your help!
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Post by grahamew on Apr 17, 2008 10:22:29 GMT -6
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Post by ephriam on Apr 17, 2008 10:23:59 GMT -6
Thank you, Diane, for fixing the image so it can be seen!
Jinlian: take a look at the image now and see if you agree.
I agree that there was considerable interchange of clothing at these photo sessions. Take a look at the famous Buffalo Bill Cody Museum scalp shirt that appears in 1877 delegation photos, worn by Little Wound, American Horse, Hollow Horn Bear, etc.
However, I think this is not true with the German silver crosses. As I have argued elsewhere, these appear to be symbols of a particular office. No one is every shown wearing Young Man Afraid cross except himself -- and it appears in his protraits for over 20 years! But your point is well taken -- clothing is sometimes not a good clue for identification. However, I think the facial structure still supports that the image is of Hollow Horn Bear.
Regarding the Jordan collection, many of the identifications were in fact provided by his son, William. I do not recall on this particular one.
All these questions just makes the images more intriguing!
ephriam
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Post by jinlian on Apr 17, 2008 10:50:53 GMT -6
Well...now to me the man in the picture looks somewhat a cross between the two chiefs! Most probably it is a personal impression, but in Cross'picture (which should have been taken a year later) Hollow Horn looks younger that the delegation man. It can be also the fact that in the later image the native is plumper than our man. Nose looks different, but lips and chin are quite the same. Guess Hollow Horn is the most likely identification.
Now (you're going to loathe me for all these questions!) I was wondering about your statement on silver crosses being symbols of a particular office. In the 1877 pictures I've seen at least two other individuals wearing similar items i.e. Little Wound and He Dog (see the picture I posted on pag. 4 of this same thread). What was all these characters' common office? Also, was it a tribal office or one appointed by the government?
Thanks!
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Post by grahamew on Apr 17, 2008 11:12:08 GMT -6
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Post by ephriam on Apr 17, 2008 12:41:54 GMT -6
Diane: Are we able to post pdf's? I wrote an article several years ago about these German silver crosses, using photographs and the Big Road Roster as an arguement that they represent some native office, but that we did not know what office it might be! I can try and post a pdf of the article to the website.
ephriam
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Post by charlie on Apr 18, 2008 1:16:57 GMT -6
I have carefully observed the face of the fourth man standing from left:he really resamble to Hollow Horn Bear (that strange name: no kind of bear have the horns...) especially in the zone under the nose and in the upper lip. Put for comparison the fine photo in close up taken by Curtis in 1900: that particular is identical! At regard the uncertain chief seated first at left in the delegation 1877, if he is RED BEAR, can anyone added some bio-infos? Thanks.
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Post by jinlian on Apr 21, 2008 5:00:53 GMT -6
Hi Charlie,
about Red Bear: according to George Hyde ("Spotted Tail and his Folk"), he was a leader of hostile Sans-Arcs who, on late April 1877, surrendered at the Spotted Tail Agency and later settled at Rosebud and later fled to Canada. I believed some info about him have already been posted in the Sans-Arc/Minneconjou bands at LBHA.
Ephriam, Diane - thank you so much, hope posting the .pdf is not much trouble for any of you or both.
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Post by jinlian on May 7, 2008 16:21:19 GMT -6
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Post by jesperolsen on Dec 30, 2010 17:48:32 GMT -6
Hello everybody, I am new here. I am very interested in Native American culture and I am trying to complete Sitting Bull and Crazy HorseĀ“s genealogical trees. Mr. Carl Dupree, could you please share with me your family tree? Thank you very much, Jesper Olsen
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 31, 2010 14:35:57 GMT -6
Welcome, Jesper!
Carl has not posted on the boards in quite a while. If you like, I can try to contact him by using an email address I have for him. The address is over two years old, so I can't promise to reach him.
Diane
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