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Post by shatonska on Jun 3, 2005 7:03:24 GMT -6
maybe , or maybe he was on a lower slope not to reduce the importance of the other chiefs , pride was so common and created so many problem to the lakota people
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Post by Don Blake on Jun 3, 2005 8:43:04 GMT -6
Yeah. He doesn't seem any taller than several of those around him - unless the identification's wrong.
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Post by Jim on Jun 4, 2005 9:20:17 GMT -6
According to Dr. Valentine McGillycuddy(who treated Crazy Horse after he was bayonetted), Touch the Clouds was 6 feet 4 inches in height. Which is quite tall for a plains indian. (Letter to Elmo S. Watson, Ayers Collection, Newberry Library, Chicago - April 13, 1922)
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Post by Don Blake on Jun 4, 2005 10:29:44 GMT -6
Interesting. He still doesn't look much taller than most of the people around him. I thought the Lakota, Cheyenne and Crow averaged about 5' 10".
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Post by Lakota Kola on Jun 9, 2005 0:09:48 GMT -6
Touch the Clouds WAS over 7 ft tall. If you go to Greasy Grass, even the Crow park ranger will tell you that Crow oral history states very clearly that a 7 ft tall Lakota chief was at the Battle and he survived.
Talk to his people. Go to Cheyenne River. Don't rely on often incorrect photos. Look up the artist that did the 10 foot statue of this awesome Minneconjou chief that greets one and all to the Houston Astrodome....he chose Touch The Clouds as his model for the statue for many good reasons...check them out. Not only was this brave Lakota a modest man... he was also a decent, loyal friend to all, especially Crazy Horse, and his good heart was every bit as tall as his impressive stature.
I have spoken.
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Post by Grahame Wood on Jun 21, 2005 12:00:23 GMT -6
I suppose it's feasible Touch The Clouds was at the battle and returned to the agency quickly, but earlier in this thread Ephriam provided this evidence that he was not at Little Bighorn (though did leave to join the 'hostiles' shortly afterwards): "Touch the Clouds was not at the Little Big Horn. Rather, he and his band were living at the Cheyenne River Agency on the Missouri River in June 1876, where documents show that he was counseling the Army: "Have compassion on us. Don't punish us all because some of us fought when we had to." (Touch the Clouds, in council at Cheyenne River Agency, July 29, 1876). " As to his height... Sorry, but the photos seem to suggest otherwise and I wonder where the stories about him being 7 foot come from. Was it someone else? Another warrior of the same name? I also suspect his name is more spiritual than literal, but the story of the 7ft man is so often repeated that it makes me suspect that there's some truth to this somewhere, even if it doesn't refer to the man presently under consideration. Look at the photo of him in the same shirt Little Wound is wearing. Now either Little Wound is also 7 ft or... And several leaders during two separate delegations (1877 and 1880, although I'm prepared to be shot down over this) were photographed wearing this shirt, as was Billy Garnett. Here are the Touch the Clouds and Little Wound photos below. Both, I think, were taken by C. M. Bell during the 1877 delegation to Washington when Touch the Clouds would've gone along as a representative of the 'Northern' Lakota. For good measure here are two delegation photos, both taken in 1877 by Matthew Brady, I believe. Touch the Clouds is third from the left in the Spotted Tail group and this appears to be him seated to the left in the Arapaho group. He doesn't seem unusually tall in either. Finally, here's another photo; I assume this was taken at the agency during (for him) the early reservation period, but I can't even guess as to the photographer. I wonder if he took part in any later delegations so we could check for photographic evidence there. As I said earlier in the thread, I have seen a photo of him with a group of other Lakotas, dressed in civilian clothing, taken many years after his surrender in, I think, Newcastle, Wyoming. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it or what the circumstances were. Hope I'm right about those dates above
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Post by shatonska on Jun 21, 2005 13:37:00 GMT -6
in the book the plains indians from salamander there is a photo of his father one horn ( with the other lakota chief like spotted tail and old man afraid ) one horn was a tall man
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Post by Grahame Wood on Jun 21, 2005 15:45:33 GMT -6
What would've been the average height for a Lakota of that time? Dificult to generalise, I know, but Bourke, a keen observer of the various Indian peoples he came into contact with, puts Crazy Horse at five feet eight and he was not regarded as a tall man. Of course, I realise other sources (Indian and white) have him anywhere from five feet five to just short of six feet!
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Post by Ephriam Dickson on Jun 23, 2005 12:59:10 GMT -6
Good morning, everyone:
While he was tall, the photographs clearly show that Touch the Clouds was not seven feet tall.
There are, as noted above, a number of photographs of him from 1877. He was photographed by Charles Bell, Matthew Brady and one of the Ulke brothers in Washington D.C. (The Ulke portrait was used then to produce a painting of him). Touch the Clouds was also photographed at the Spotted Tail Agency by James H. Hamilton in the fall of 1877 (holding a rifle); also Private Charles Howard apparently photographed him as well though I have not been able to find a copy of that image yet. He was also photographed by Alexander Gardner in 1877 in the large delegation view at the Corcoran Gallery.
As to the shirt, yes, it is the same one worn by American Horse, William Garnett (Billy Hunter), Little Wound, and others in both the 1877 and 1880 delegation photographs. The original shirt is now preserved at the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum. It was apparently packed in a trunk returning from Washington D.C. in 1880 and lost at that time; the trunk and its contents was found years later and auctioned off, with the shirt eventually arriving in Cody.
Hope this helps.
Ephriam
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Post by Scout on Jun 24, 2005 7:09:43 GMT -6
Grahame & Ephriam,
It is so nice to read logic for a change! You can argue the Touch the Clouds story forever and you won't convince some people....I mean there are existing photographs of him...more than one, but will people will tell you they are mislabeled, they have a hard time believing actual proof....the myth is so much better and people have a hard time with their heroes being ''normal''....they have to be as big as the myth. Custer himself has been listed as 6' but in reality he was probably around 5'8''-9''....his clothes are still around....although some people will even argue with this, although I don't know why.
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Post by Grahame Wood on Jul 10, 2005 12:54:28 GMT -6
Thanks for putting up the pictures, Diane.
Which one is the Ulke photo, Ephriam?
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Post by Ephriam Dickson on Jul 11, 2005 20:12:54 GMT -6
The first photograph you posted, with his right hand on his hip. I will try and post the painting.
e
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Post by Grahame Wood on Jul 12, 2005 9:51:22 GMT -6
Thanks.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 12, 2005 15:57:34 GMT -6
With a name like TOUCH THE CLOUDS . . . it could only mean he was so tall that he could touch the clouds. Indian names have REAL meanings . . . not just named after saints or the like.
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Post by Grahame Wood on Jul 12, 2005 16:15:31 GMT -6
Well, he doesn't look that much taller than the people around him and as posted above, McGillycuddy put him at 6' 4". Maybe the name had to do with his strength of character. Maybe it was a family name. Maybe it was something he'd seen in a vision...
Does anyone have an estimation for the average height of a Lakota in this period?
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