What happened to Touch the Clouds?

[Scout the Clouds]

About 5'8'' to 5' 10'' is my guess..some were taller but most were average men.....thanks for the postings! Some people will still insist TTC was 9 ft. tall with an ox named Blue.

crzhrs,...yes Indian names had meaning and a lot were spiritual rather than literal. The name Crazy Horse is a spiritual name....he didn't own a crazy horse....Sitting Bull is a spiritual name, he didn't sit with bulls, which would be the literal. The name Touch the Clouds is a spiritual name....there are also pictures of Long Soldier, who also, was not 9 ft. tall as some have suggested....Lakota Kola, do you get it now? or are these ''fake'' Touch the Clouds pictures as you suggested.

Scout

[Grahame Wood]

Bourke estimated Crazy Horse at 5' 8" and he was not considered a tall man - so I'm guessing he was less than average height.

[crzhrs]

Wooden Leg . . . legs made of wood, NO! He could walk all day without getting tired, so he must have legs made of wood.

Kate Big Head . . . a large head, NO! She was very smart, therefore she had a "big head"

Crazy Horse . . . cuckoo, NO! Crazy meant magical or mystical in the Lakota language . . . and horses were the most valuable and important animal the Plains Indians had.

Sitting Bull . . . sat around with buffalo, NO! The buffalo was the most important wild animal to the Plains Indian and a sitting bull was the most revered of all buffalo.

Indian names usually represented some quality or physical feature and often times were changed when something important happened to that person.

[Ephriam Dickson]

It is also important to remember that for many Lakota, their name was inherited. The famous Oglala warrior Crazy Horse received his name as a young man from his father, who then went by the name Worm. This was a way for a father to honor his young son as he came of age. Names were believed to possess power and meaning; to pass it on to a young man coming of age was an act of honor and came with its associatred power and meaning.

In other cases, names were assumed when someone died. When Crazy Horse's half-brother, Little Hawk, was killed in 1870, his uncle abandoned his name Long Face and took on the name Little Hawk as a way of honoring the young man's memory. Touch the Clouds himself apparently took on the name of his father later in life, becoming known as Lone Horn.

Just a thought to consider...

Ephriam

[LakotaKola]

Most of you are not really looking at those photos...there are clues there as to the astounding height of this man. You are not paying attention to that which is important. You are not finding all the photos that there are.

The "evidence" you point to in text saying he was not at the battle is inaccurate. He rode with Crazy Horse all the time. Crow oral history states a 7 ft tall Lakota chief was at the battle - they were his enemy...why would they lie? There is also a northern Cheyenne Touch the Clouds - researchers often mislabeled the two since the Minneconjou TTC was from Cheyenne RIVER.

Touch the Cloud's people know the truth, and they don't see the need to answer your questions. Most of you are missing the point here anyway...you are all so hung up on your facts"that you aren't seeing the truth. You don't know anything about TTC - you just think you do. His real height needs no defense...it just is.

(Personal attacks and heated arguments beween guests have been and will be deleted. -- Diane)

[Michael N]

LakotaKola,

Dispelling myths are hard to do. You keep saying, ask his people, but none of them ever knew him. He died way before their time. you said ''why would they lie?" They are not lying, they have at some point, like you , excepted the ''bigger than life'' myth. I have over 50 accounts of so called ''sole survivors'', men who said they escaped the final destruction and their family descendants say they actually did, although most can be documented as being hundreds of miles away the day of the battle. But when you tell them their ancestors were nowhere near the battle and give them actual proof that they were nowhere near the battle they ask, ''why would he lie?''

We can have heated discussions here, but keep it at a calm and well thought out level and not a war of words. Peace be with you.

Scout

[Ephriam Dickson]

Lakota Kola:

I am intrigued by your comment that Touch the Clouds was present at the Little Big Horn and that he always rode with Crazy Horse. That is not the information that I have seen and would appreciate understanding why you think he was there.

I would also add that in historical studies, we sometimes fail to remember that there are several levels of understanding.

Data -- First, there is the information itself, the original source to which we can all examine. In the case of Touch the Clouds, we have several documents in the Cheyenne River Agency files at the National Archives that mention Touch the Clouds at the Agency, including one in which he spoke at a council in July 1876. In addition, a ledger book in the records of the adjacent Army garrison records the date when Touch the Clouds and other Minneconjou/Sans Arc fled the agency that fall. We also have several Lakota accounts of the Minneconjou joining the northern bands that fall.

Interpretation -- Then, there are the conclusions that we draw from that data. In this case, the mentions in documents of Touch the Clouds at the agency through the spring and summer of 1876 suggests that he was not at the Little Big Horn. That is my interpretation based upon the available evidence.

Hypothesis -- By weaving together the data/facts and interpretations/perspectives, we create a hypothesis or idea of what we think was happening. In the case of Touch the Clouds, I think that he was a moderate headman who, like his father before him, had successfully walked the fine line between the agency bands and the northern bands who remained away from the agencies. During this period, there was considerable political tension and polarization as each of the bands and their leadership struggled to come to grips with the overwhelming flood of whites engulfing their territory and way of life and did so in different ways. I see Touch the Clouds in some ways as a moderating force between these two tensions, though leaning more towards the agency band side by the end of the Great Sioux War of 1876-77. Now that is my hypothesis, based on the available data and my interpreations of that data.

But each of us have to be prepared to revise our understanding when new data or new perspectives are brought to an issue. And when someone has arrived at a different conclusion by looking at the same information, a historian has to also go back and re-examine his/her assumptions. But it all begins with data. So, in the case of Touch the Clouds being at the LBH, I would ask that you share your sources as to why you think he was there and I will go back and re-examine mine to see if I made a mistake (wouldn't be the first time!).

Is your interpretation based on accounts of the Crow scouts? If so, can you tell me which interviews so that I may read their accounts as well; maybe I missed something!

If what the Crow accounts say is that there was a tall Lakota chief at the LBH, that may not necessarily mean that this was Touch the Clouds. You mentioned there was a man by a similar name among the Northern Cheyenne. I also have notes on a Hunkpapa named Mahpiya Iyabeto, variously translated as Push Against the Cloud, Reaching Cloud or High in the Clouds. He was a headman within Sitting Bull's band, surrendered with Sitting Bull and went to Fort Randall with the chief in 1881 as a prisoner of war. After returning to Standing Rock Agency, he was recognized by the agent as a headman and had his own band. Could we be misinterpreting the Crow scouts statements to assume that a "tall Lakota headman" meant Touch the Clouds?

What makes this forum enjoyable and educational for us all is the opportunity to debate information and to hear different persepectives that we may not have considered. I for one would prefer to stick to debating and sharing of information and interpretations, with the common goal of increasing our understanding.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and information!

Ephriam

[Jewell]

Can anyone tell me is the name Touch the Cloud or Touch the Clouds? I read it both ways in various books. Also, any information about his perosnal life - wife, her name; children, their names; where he settled at Cheyenne River Agency; where he died, etc?

This site is very informative. I'm pleased to have discovered it.

Jewell

[Jewell]

Jewell:

Probably the most accurate translation of his Lakota name, Mahpiya Icahtagya, would be Touch the Clouds (as opposed to Touch the Cloud).

According to Buechel & Manhart, Lakota Dictionary (2002), the word mahpiya means "the clouds" (p. 193). The word is already plural. If you were speaking of a single isolated cloud, you would distinguish that by saying mahpiya ayaskapa.

The Lakota word icahtagya means "touching, as a cup-board does a wall, or as a man leaning against the wall" (p. 101).

Ephriam

[kingsleybray]

The name is also sometimes given as Mahpiya Iyapato. Buechel & Manhart 'Lakota Dictionary' p. 251 defines the verb iyapato as "To butt against, to be struck by; to press on, be cramped by e.g. a short moccasin". So this version has the sense of Pressed Up Against the Clouds.

Kingsley

[Dietmar]

Hello,
I think I found a photograph of Touch-theClouds, when he was with his wife at the Transmississippi & International Exposition at Omaha in 1898. The picture was done by F.A. Rinehart. Look at:

www.omaha.lib.ne.us/transmiss/rinehart/tmi00889.jpeg
or
www.omaha.lib.ne.us/transmiss/research/cleanhtml/tmi00889.html

Greetings from Germany
Dietmar

[crzhrs]

I've seen photos of T-T-Cs and he is sitting down with holding a rifle in an upright position. His hair is braided, and he is mostly bare-chested.

He appears sinewy and looks formidable in a pleasant way.

[Grahame Wood]

That photo is on page two of the current thread. Takes a while to load.

[Ephriam Dickson]

Earlier in this thread, we were debating the issue of whether Touch the Clouds was at the Little Big Horn or not. I cited several documents from the Cheyenne River Agency letters received files that show him in councils at the agency during the summer of 1876, suggesting that he was NOT there.

I recently came across another source. While headed to Washington D.C. in the fall of 1877, a reporter in Chicago met the delegation. He noted that He Dog, Little Big Man, Iron Crow, Red Bear and Big Road had all been at the LBH. However, he noted that Touch the Clouds did not leave the agency until the fall of 1876 -- yet another source to document that he was not there.

e

[Diane Merkel]

Here are the two headshots. The first is the photo from Page 2 of this thread, and the second is the one that Dietmar found (thank you!). Are they the same man?



If so, then I don't believe he was very tall unless his wife was also extremely tall. Here's the photo Dietmar found:



I don't believe "LakotaKola" has joined us since his last post on this page, but this photograph makes me think that TTC was not terribly tall. I originally became interested in TTC because of the Fort Abraham Lincoln photo. The Indian had been identified as Bloody Knife for years.



However, thanks to Cesare Marino of the Smithsonian, I now believe he was a Gros Ventre name Long Soldier. On the D. F. Barry glass plate was written, "Over 7 feet tall Sioux giant."