Terry's Orders--When did Custer do as he saw fit?

[conz]

Gordie,

That was my understanding as well...that Terry all along had intended to move up to the LBH juncture of the BH via Tullock's creek, and cross over. He wasn't waiting for any word to make this decision.

So nothing Custer or Herendeen did could have prevented this difficult movement, is my take.

The only value I see in Herendeen's information would be that IF the village escaped north when Custer got close, Terry would have been better prepared for them coming down the LBH rather than Tullock's.

Of course, it is conceivable that if the village moved out on the night of the 24th/25th due to its discovery of Custer's column, it probably would have moved over to Tullock's in the dark!

Then we would have the odd situation where Herendeen may have reported to Terry that Tullock's was clear, and then have the Natives show up the next day in Tullock's, ready to run due east, and out of the cavalry's grasp.

This is about the only way the battle of LBH could have been avoided, looks to me. If the village moves north, west, or south, they run into more cavalry. Only by moving over to Tullock's, with Custer being too far south per Terry's instructions, could they have escaped battle.

Clair

[harpskiddie]

conz:

As to the possibility of the camps moving other than into troops. Several bands did in fact leave the Little Horn valley and avoided Custer and Crook. They left on the night of 23 June, according to my source, and would have crossed Rosebud south of the southernmost foray of the Crows, on the 24th. The actual route is still a matter to be resolved, although I think I know where they traveled as far as the Rosebud [and it was NOT down Davis Creek].

There was no reason for the remaining camps to move over to Tulloch's. They knew where Terry was, and where Crook was. The only command they had no handle on was Custer's. But if they had known where he was, they could have avoided him too, as the many [and it was many] I mentioned above in fact did.

I'm sorry that I cannot be more specific, but I am trying to keep the material confidential until I'm told that I can use it for other than my own purposes.

Gordie
MC

[conz]

Good report, Gordie...

If the Natives were inclined to avoid battle (which of course, they were not, but we are looking into Custer's decision-making here, and that was certainly his and Terry's fear), the only way the village could move by the 23rd or later was east.

North is blocked by Terry (although perhaps they could have squeezed by him, but there isn't too much room). West is blocked by the Crows (they could have gone a little ways into their land, but they would not be inclined to invade their territory with all their lodges too far). South they knew Crook's camp was waiting for them (again, possible for them to slip by, but why?...not much room to run in that direction either with the Platte River and Shoshone territory).

So Custer knows that the Indians know their only respectable way out of the noose Sheridan designed was to move east.

Now as you say, on the 23rd the best path to perform this feat is to go southeast from the camps, since Custer is still down the Rosebud somewhat. On the 24th, Custer pretty well closes that route with his position near the divide...any village needs to stay at least 20, preferably 30 miles away to avoid detection from scouts. Detection would probably provoke an immediate (within hours) attack from the Cavalry column.

But if Custer follows Terry's orders to move farther south, knowing that the village is actually farther to the north, closer to the Big Horn junction with LBH, it leaves the divide and the headwaters area of Tullock's creek WIDE open without coverage...the entire village can leisurely move due east without interference or detection.

So Custer following Terry's instructions, knowing the likely location of the village, would have been a grave operational error in decision-making, I must judge.

Clair

[hiswillingshill]

Dark Cloud

On behalf of the Harold Society of Ringworm, we want to thank you for the simply brilliant presentation to us yesterday. You were brilliant, and to speak in front of us both for ten minutes without notes breathtaking in itself.

I'll be around to provide excuse for a pretend exchange of views when you don't have the stomach to confront someone on their idiocy. We cowards must stick together.

[Dark Cloud]

Coincidently, I just happened to be reading the board when your most kind praise was posted.

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[douglas]

Sorry about the delayed reply. Mike I understood your point that Herendeen should have been sent with the Crow scouts, so that he could have left them at the divide to report to Terry. My point was that neither Custer or the scouts knew they were going to the divide until the scouts found that the Indians had turned west. Custer didn't know until about 9pm when the scouts reported to him.

[mcaryf]

Hi Douglas

The turning or otherwise of the Indian trail was not really an issue for Herendeen's mission. He was to go to scout Tullock's and report to Terry and he would have been required to do this even if the trail went up the Rosebud. Thus his mission required him to go up Davis Creek regardless. Him hanging around for 3 -4 hours near Busby with Custer with the path to Tulloock's up ahead and not doing anything for Terry was hardly a good use of his time and skill.

Hi Gordie

Since Terry desired Custer to scout Tullock's and report and since he took his own column 3 mile up Tullock's and sent his own scouts further, it seems only fair to credit the man with having some sort of plan in mind with regard to Tullock's Creek and the possible presence of the village there. I guess it would be necessary to have some sort of evidence that indicated that these were purely random actions on Terry's part in order to discount the possibility as firmly as you do.

Regards

Mike

[harpskiddie]

Mike:

You must have misunderstood my earlier post when I said that Terry's intention was to go to the mouth of the Little Horn by going up Tulloch's and cutting across - which is what he did, albeit in a thoroughly inefficient manner. That was his purpose in moving up Tulloch's. What his reason was for desiring the upper reaches of that creek examined and Herendeen to come through with information as to that examination is a matter of speculation, for he never, so far as I know, said what it was.

One can make that desire fit into any scenario one can imagine. The fact remains that Terry said that he was going to the mouth of the Little Horn, and that is where he wished Custer to report to him not later than the time for which he was provisioned. I have seen no serious mention anywhere of any possible plan based on the possibility of the camps being anywhere on the Tulloch.

Gordie
MC

[douglas]

Hi Mike, Since you consider the route up Davis creek to the divide to be the logical one for Herendeen to scout and reach Tulloch's, would it not also be the way that the Indians would reach Tulloch's if that was their destination? So how could Custer or Herendeen be sure they were not on Tulloch's until the village was definetly spotted on the LBH? That didn't happen in time for a message to reach Terry on the 25th.

[mcaryf]

Hi Douglas

What you say is correct - once the trails went up Davis Creek the possibility existed that the Indians would be on Tullock's, the LBH or somewhere in between. If the trail did not go up Davis Creek then at least that or those bands would obviously not have been heading for any of those destinations. However that does not address the issue that Herendeen's mission was to get information to Terry about Tullock's Creek specifically whether it was clear of hostiles or not. He still had to be sent even if the trails Custer was following did continue up the Rosebud.

Herendeen told Custer at 5am or thereabouts on the 24th that his route to scout Tullock's would effectively be the same route that the Custer's column was then taking. I assume from this that he meant along the Rosebud with Herendeen planning that he would cut across to the head of Tullock's Creek up Davis Creek. I guess Herendeen supposed that Custer thought that he, Herendeen, would head West from where they were at 5am.

I do not know the country there so this suggestion might be inappropriate but it seems to me that Custer's actual suggestion that Herendeen should have gone at 5am was possibly the right idea. If, for example the village was on the headwaters of Tullock's Creek, then Herendeen would not have been able to get by it to go to Terry from the Crows Nest direction. However, if he had struck Tullock's a bit further down its course and seen signs of the village further up it then the opportunity for Custer to get one side and Terry the other would have been good. Plainly Custer reasonably deferred to Herendeen and Bouyer's better knowledge of the terrain but perhaps he was right.

However. once the column halted for so long at Busby, Herendeen's original excuse for not going seems no longer to apply. It would appear that Terry's own timeline was reasonably clear, that he would be at the mouth of the LBH by the evening of the 26th. Working backwards this would place him around Tullock's on the 24th where indeed he was. Thus the timing for Herendeen's mission should have required him to continue on, either alone or with Custer's other scouts. That this did not happen may be down in equal measures to Custer and Herendeen but certainly Custer was told by his boss that he desired this mission done and there seems to have been no good reason why it was not done.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

It's rather delusional to think a large group of Indians could camp for any amount of time on Tulluch's creek. Tulluchs drains the Wolf Mountains, which aren't mountains, and there isn't enough fresh water for a camp many times smaller than that which was on the LBH. Plus, the water in the three branches of Tulluchs may have been as bad as that of the Rosebud. Better put, nobody would choose Tulluchs over LBH with a pony herd of of a gazillion, plus people.

Custer was following a huge trail, the camp would need lots of water. Tulluchs would provide lots of issues for such a huge camp. I'd be willing to bet, and to concede, that they credited the Indians with common sense, knew they wouldn't be there, and followed the trail due west.

[douglas]

Hi Mike, I don't know the country either, but I have never heard anyone claim that Herendeen was wrong when he told Custer that it was too soon. After all it was the upper part of Tullock's that Terry wanted scouted. It seems to me that Custer had the best of reasons for not sending a message on the 24th. He didn't know until about 9pm that the Indians were not on Tullock's. As you say, they could well have been. DC is probably right that it was not a place to camp for any time, but it was the logical place if the they had turned back east. No message to Terry is better than one that could well have been wrong.

[douglas]

DC, I think you are right that Tullocks was not a good place for a camp for any time. Still Terry considered it a possibility and wanted it scouted. I don't see Custer as being wrong in not sending a message until he was certain that there was no camp there. By the time he knew the Indians were on LBH, Terry was past Tullocks. You have mentioned the bad water in the Rosebud area before, but the Indians didn't seem to have a problem with it.

[Dark Cloud]

Actually, just the Rosebud, not the area, and I don't know if Tulluchs water tasted like a mouthful of alum as the Rosebud can. I do think it understood that that there was a large camp on the LBH (from the trail), and if there were also a large camp on Tullock's (-h?) as well, they were fried. Herendeen would have to retrace their own trail back up north along the Rosebud if there WERE a Tulluck's camp as well. By the time Herendeen'd get to Terry, Custer and Terry would have likely already have met, as was the case, in two days.

No clue, myself, but as in the reasons for Custer departing from Terry's wishes and going on his own hook, Herendeen can be granted good reason for not going, all of which were proven true, anyway. I'd doubt any commander based significant movements on the iffy likelihood of a specific messenger arriving on time, if at all. Would hope not, and Terry did not.

This is a straw man. Custerphiles use it to demonstrate a willingness to point out a potential flaw, and phobes use it to pile on. There was no evidence of activity on Tullucks and a great deal of evidence of much activity on the LBH.

[harpskiddie]

The "entrance" to Davis and Thompson Creeks is the notch Herendeen referenced in his now supposed conversation with Custer on 24 June. Trying to get to the headwaters of Tulloch's Creek by crossing over from the Rosebud before reaching that point was rather problematic. The terrain is not conducive to such a trip.

The water "along the Rosebud" is not consistently alkaline, and is not consistently water. Sometimes a creek marked on a map is simply a line, and the line on the map holds as much water as the physical location does. People who were familiar with the country had knowledge of where water would most likely be, based upon the weather of the previous winter and spring. The hostiles knew where best to travel and camp, and so did the Crows. No camp of any size would have used Tulloch's except as a travel route, and then only in exigent circumstances.

As I mentioned above, why Terry wanted the headwaters examined is a question still to be answered, and one can use his desire that it should be to advance any theory. He had not outlined any plan, so far as I know, that required a march up or down Tulloch's for any appreciable distance; he would not have expected the hostiles to actually BE on Tulloch's, if he had asked anyone familiar with the country and the hostiles, and had listened to their reply.

Since nobody really knew where the hostiles were located [in several different places, actually, until they came together on the Little Horn], there is no reason for anyone to have thought that they might have turned back to the east from the Little Horn [whose upper portion they were thought to have been on, maybe], and even if they had, they would not have used Tulloch's to do so.

If they had desired to go back east from where they were on the 24th, they would have used Ash and Davis or Thompson Creeks. If they had been farther up the Little Horn, they would have used the same route or others which were known to them [and one of which WAS used by some of the camps, who DID go back east]. If they had been farther down, toward the Big Horn, they would have simply retraced their steps, since it would have been much easier than crossing over to Tulloch's.

Gordie
MC
master cartographer