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Post by Scout on Nov 22, 2005 16:35:26 GMT -6
While recently reading an article on Thomas Edison invention of sound recording I was struck by how many participants of the Battle of the Little Bighorn were alive when sound/audio were first available. Edison's first sucesses were begun in 1889 and by the early 1900's to 1929 sound recordings made tremendous strides. What a shame that so many participants were alive when sound recording was in its early stages and could have been recorded.
If someone had just thought to record the following participants of the battle;
Moylan & McDougall died 1909, DeRudio died 1910, Mathey 1915, Gibson 1919...a number lived much longer and well into phonic recordings. Edgerly 1927, Hare 1929, Godfrey 1932. Numerous Indian scouts, White-Man-Runs-Him, Curly, Hairy Moccasins plus numerous Sioux and Cheyenne participants were still alive. Charles Windolph lived till 1954!
Why didn't anybody interview and record these people! I guess this crying over spilled milk, but to think we could have actual recordings of these people!
If only Neihardt had recorded his interviews with Black Elk. Someone could have had great interview/recordings by Charles Windolph. What a shame.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 22, 2005 17:08:09 GMT -6
Actually Windolph died in 1950.
It is amazing that so many of those we discuss lived well into the 20th century, red & white. It may have been very difficult to get recording equipment to remote parts of Indian reservations. It's possible that Indians would have felt threatened by something that "captures" their voice and could be used against them.
As for soldiers, who knows what's out there, but I doubt any recordings were ever made. There is, however, a recording of Buffalo Bill done prior to the Spanish-American War (1898) that is available. Go to google: American Memories, and type in Buffalo Bill. And I believe there is a recording of Dewey Beard (Iron Hail) who was at the LBH and Wounded Knee. Try American Memory also.
There is actually film of several of the participants including Two Moons. There is also film of Libbie Custer done in the late 1920s-early 1930s, and possibly lurking in someone's attic or lost in some archive more stuff that could be of immense value. It may show up in the future.
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Post by El Crab on Nov 22, 2005 19:25:09 GMT -6
While available, its likely to have been rather expensive at that time. It also is likely that recordings were viewed as a novelty, and with books and articles being steadfastly entrenched as the media of choice, no one thought to record accounts beyond paper.
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 23, 2005 2:34:45 GMT -6
Wonder if someone like Godfrey, say, could have been interviewed for radio at some point? There could be a recording lurking in some radio-station's archive ... Or even in the West Point library. You never know.
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Post by Scout on Nov 23, 2005 8:14:40 GMT -6
I have seen the films of Cody but was unaware of any audio recordings. Horse, you say there are recordings of Dewey Beard....do you know where these were located? Would love to get my hands on one. The amazing thing is that there is a VHS tape available of films and sound interviews with veterans of the civil war and that is much earlier than our era of interest, so hope survives these things may exist tucked away in the Smithsoian or some state or college archive somewhere.
In the 1970's I bought a really nice box set containing 2 records of John Neihardt interviews talking about his Black Elk book in a clearance bin for one dollar. It also came with a huge poster of Black Elk, the ex-Mrs. chunked it out along with four Civil War pistols at one point. I get sick thinking about it, oh well ....anyway, I can't find the LP anymore. Anyone got a copy or know where I can obtain one? I haven't seen one on ebay...if anyone sees one pops up let me know.
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Post by Jim on Nov 23, 2005 9:15:35 GMT -6
Scout, Here's something I found that may interest you. "The newly released CD "Ben Black Elk Speaks" is a compilation of stories, songs and remembrances of the son of the Lakota holy man Nicholas Black Elk who knew some of the most famous figures in history including; Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull and Red Cloud; and was present during the battle of Little Big Horn and the massacre at Wounded Knee. " www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1037289795
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Post by Scout on Nov 23, 2005 12:47:08 GMT -6
Thanks so much Jim....an interesting site.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 23, 2005 13:20:40 GMT -6
Scout:
Go to google, type American Memory, then type in Buffalo Bill. A list of photos, etc., will come up. Look for the one about the Spanish American War. That's the one that has BB talking.
For the life of me, I cannot find or remember where I heard Dewey Beard's recording, he lived until 1955.
I have seen the films and heard recordings of the CW veterans. A number of them lived at least into the 1930s or a little later.
Since the CW was far more "glorious" than the Indian Wars and more men fought in the North/South Armies it was much easier to locate, film, and record their stories.
Since many Indians who experienced white-indian conflict survived well into the 20th century and all the oral interviews given, one would think somebody would have brought a recording device along. It's possible that some thought it would have been a waste of time recording their voices when it was easier for an interpreter to repeat their words in English.
You would think that some of the historians and scholars would have realized the value of recording people like White Bull, Wooden Leg, One Bull, Godfrey, Varnum, Windolph, etc.
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Post by Jim on Nov 23, 2005 17:35:14 GMT -6
Scout, It looks like Michigan State University has the recordings of Dewey Beard. Don't ask me why their in Michigan, but you may want to look at this address: vvl.lib.msu.edu/showfindingaid.cfm?findaidid=BeardDAnd maybe they'll have it available at your local library on a loan.
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Post by Scout on Nov 25, 2005 7:58:04 GMT -6
Jim & crzhrs
Thanks so much for finding the Dewey Beard recordings. I'm getting to in touch with Michigan Sate and see if I can obtain a copy or copies. Horse, thanks for the info on Buffalo Bill. I've seen the silent films of him but never knew there was audio.
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2005 8:49:13 GMT -6
Y'all-- It really is a shame some of these people were never recorded. I first fell in lover w/ this Custer business when I was a kid & when I think back I can well remember reading "ancient" stories of the battle. Charles Windolph was still alive! So was Jacob Horner, a K Company trooper, who wasn't actually at the battle, but had been left behind at the PRD. He outlived Windolph by a year & a half. At least he was on the campaign. Some Indian participants were also still alive, but at 10 or 11 years of age in the early '50's, who knew? Can you imagine speaking to one of these old men on some radio or TV call-in show? Wow!
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2005 10:28:24 GMT -6
Jim-- Your post about Black Elk is very interesting. I "collect" names & I have a "Black Elk" listed as a 13-year old Oglala at the battle. The information I have also lists him as "Nicholas Black Elk," b. 1863 (therefore, 13 at the time of the LBH), d. either 17 or 19Aug1950 in SD. He was supposed to have been a highly respected holy man, eventually becoming a serious Catholic. I also have him listed as the "son" of a Black Elk, but for some odd reason that I have failed to annotate (or remember), I don't have the father listed as present at the battle. I do list a Cheyenne chief w/ the same name, however, but no other Sioux. Any ideas?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Jim on Nov 25, 2005 17:13:05 GMT -6
Fred,
As you may, or may not know, when Indians converted to Catholicism, they were required to take a christian name. Black Elk, as I recall took the name of Nicholas, so it's the same one from the LBH. That was the only way they could be buried in a Catholic Cemetary. I am acquainted with Clarence Spotted Wolf of the Northern Cheyenne tribe. His grandfather( who fought at the Rosebud & Little Bighorn Battles) never converted to Catholicism, and had to be buried, upon his death, in the traditional Cheyenne burial, which was in a cave on the Northern Cheyenne reservation in southeastern Montana. You may wish to purchase the Book, "Black Elk Speaks", by John Neihardt, if you don't already have it.
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2005 17:24:25 GMT -6
Jim-- Thanks! I wasn't aware of the business w/ the Church requiring "Christian" names for burial. And me from a Jesuit college! I will definitely get the book you recommend. I would appreciate knowing any other names from the battle you might run across that aren't the common household variety. I have 879-- men & women-- so far, but am always looking for more.
Again, thanks for your help. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Scout on Nov 26, 2005 8:57:59 GMT -6
I first became aware of John Neihardt and Black Elk when Neihardt was a guess on the Dick Cavett show and if memory serves correct the whole show was with Neihardt. That was in the late 60's and the show was fascinating. Neihardt talked in depth about Black Elk and the LBH. I rushed out and bought the book...price $1.50 new. I think it sells for around $14.95 these days...boy times have changed. My copy is old and quite frayed now, but I understand it is on a lot of college reading lists. Later I bought, as I mentioned before, a 2 record box set of LP's of Neihardt. Neihardt's daughter Hilda, who was with her father during the BE interviews is still alive. As Jim pointed out, Black Elk took the name Nicholas after joining the church. The Black Elk family has a website, so does Hilda Neihardt. ''Black Elk Speaks'' is an incredible read and an American classic.
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