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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 19, 2024 8:11:20 GMT -6
Seriously? Again?? AND AGAIN?? Did you forget the last 20 times I did this?? You SURE you WANT to know??
ok - the 'interest' in arguing the same exact things over and over and over continues after 42 pages. I have been doing just this - placing GC where he was on G/WH/Pt 7 explicitly using proof re: the people who were there. Yet there is STILL struggle with the facts by some, or just the refusal to comprehend; so again I simplified just some of the primary witness statements to make them even easier to understand.
These are paraphrasing REAL statements that can all be verified...
*Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge *The highest point is Weir's Hill it is 1/2mile below Reno position *the farthest you can see towards B from Reno Position is 1/2 mile to that highest point Weir's Hill *The highest Point is point 7 *point 7 the highest point is where Custer was seen *point 7 the highest point is 5-600 yards from Reno Retreat up *point 7 the highest point is the highest point just below where Reno made his stand *Weir's Hill is 1700' north of Reno retreat up *Benteen's G is the high point where Custer 1st saw village *Where DeRudio saw Custer matches Herendeen's estimate of where Custer would be (@ "Weir's Hill") at that time *point 7 the highest point and Benteens G was confirmed by at least 2 witnesses on the 27th as the point where Custer 1st saw village *point 7 the highest point overlooks/is just below where DeWolf was killed *DeWolf was killed at Reno retreat up *at Reno retreat up, the village view is partially blocked by a high hill *at point 7 the highest point where Custer was seen, the river is tight against the bluffs *at point 7 the highest point where Custer 1st saw village, the river is tight against the bluffs
*at Edgerly peaks, the river is over 1/2 mile away from the bluffs *Weir's Hill is where Custer 1st saw village. *after seeing the village from Weir's Hill, GC waved his hat & cheered *after a discussion re:GC seeing the village from Weir's Hill, the command cheered *at the highest point on the bluffs, Custer's men cheered *at point 7 the highest point Custer waved and cheered *Custer rode to the high pinnacle and waved his hat *Custer's troops were identified probably 1/4 mile below Reno corral, on the high bluff *Custer command was seen on the bluffs about 1/2mile north of Reno Corral *Custer was seen on the edge of the buff, where he could see the river *Custer's command rode over the high ridge and past the high ground *From the same highest hill / ridge where General Custer saw part of the village the first time, Martin saw Reno fighting, and later retreating *After they had reached the highest point 7 where Custer was seen/located, Martin showed Benteen where he was sent back *Custer's command moved passed the highest ground about 1000/1500 ft then down a ravine to the right *Custer went to the right just past the highest point 7, down a ravine at point 8 *The last seen of Custer he was going along that high bluff down stream from the position where Reno was *Custer was never seen on Edgerly peaks, but was seen/located at the highest point point 7 *Only the scouts were on the high points north of Weir's Hill *Custer saw the village from the highest point on the ridge to the right of Reno intrenchment *the high hill/point just north of where Reno entrenched is where Custer sent the scouts *from the high hill the scouts could see part of the village and Reno fighting *Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and saw Reno - he did not see him retreat *Close to RBDS on the ridge above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind *after seeing Reno's fighting from the high hill, Custer & command turned down South coulee into MTC *Point 7 the highest point on the bluffs is where Edgerly and Weir earlier saw indians, then Edgerly moved to the right towards point 8 *A guidon was planted on top of the highest Hill, termed Capt Weir's Hill *At the highest point where the guidon was planted you can not see the battlefield *The farthest advance under Reno was 1/2mile below that highest point *the advance troops dismounted at the farthest point aka Edgerly peaks *Reno and Benteen discussed the Weir retreat while standing a 1/2mile south of Edgerly peaks, at the highest point, AKA 5/7 *the highest point Weir's Hill is 2500' south of Edgerly Peak *Edgerly moved out after Weir and went to the highest point point 7 *Edgerly farthest advance was '1.5 miles' from Reno position, included going a few hundred yards from the highest point point 7, then down little valley/coulee to the right at point 8, the same as Custer *Weir Point is +/-1.4 miles from reno position *Edgerly got to point 9, after being in the little valley and circling/looping back to the bluffs and proceeding north with others *Edgerly got to Edgerly/Reno peaks in advance of Weir *troops in the Weir advance went to & dismounted at Edgerly peaks point 9 *no troops in Weir advance with Martin went to the highest point point 7 *troops in Weir advance with Martin did go to Edgerly peaks *Hare saw Reno going to the highest point point 5 (which he marked near pt 7) *Reno was on the summit of the highest bluff when he sent Hare ahead to D/Weir @edgerly Peaks *Reno and Benteen were 1/2 mile above/south of Edgerly peaks when he sent Hare *Godfrey set up the Weir retreat skirmish line 1750' south of Weir's Hill *Godfrey set up the Weir retreat skirmish line at Reno retreat up *Reno retreat up is 1700' south of Weir's Hill *At Weir's Hill you can not see the battlefield *At edgerly peaks you can see the battlefield *At Reno, there was a high hill which concealed part of the village *The troops passed the high land going to the point where the Indians first engaged Company D at Edgerly peaks
If anyone needs more facts than all these…read a period map.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 19, 2024 21:36:08 GMT -6
You continue presenting irrelevant data as a valid conclusion. The conclusion is yours and entirely misguided.
Here's why - there is one acceptable record placing Custer (himself) rather than his command, in the bluffs during the attack in the valley. This is not the various sightings of people on the bluffs made by men of Reno's command or the Indians they were attacking.
This was the trip made with Trumpeter Martin. That's it. The only confirmed presence of Custer halted and examing the valley and one can reasonably assume, all the terrain in view.
It is known from the investigation made by ESC, where Custer went with Martin, to perform that task. We know from Martin that he and Custer went to observe the valley. We know from the Crow scouts who were in advance of Custer in the bluffs, where Custer and Martin went to do it.
I simply say again, that's it. Fun.
At that time and for a period afterwards, there was no battlefield downriver because it hadn't happened. A careful study of all comment by surviving soldiers indicates that the first knowledge of a battlefield downriver was obtained on 27th June 1876.
Simply accept reality. Custer went to ESC's '2' and that's it. Anything else is a marketing effort gluing bits and bobs of this and that into globular clusters. DeRudio thought he saw Custer somewhere on the bluffs and it turns out that was impossible. Had DeRudio seen Custer's flag when he thought he saw the Lt. Col waving then I would believe it. He did not. He did not see Custer and it is simply his uncorroborated opinion (at best) that he did. Reality of human eyesight means that at best he saw three people and one was waving.
We know who that was from others who were there. All WMC did was licate a spit to which 'it seems' Capt. Weir went to briefly at a time when he saw nothing happening beyond Horizon Ridge because he couldn't if it had, or was occuring at the time he was there.
It has always struck me as odd that WMC did not find the relics on Luce and NC ridges during his annual visits. He knew to look for the and his questionaires enquired for information about soldiers being on that terrain. Somehow though, it was only after his death that others began finding the stuff.
In terms of Benteen's 'G' we can assume that Martin told Benteen of it. Unfortunately, neither Benteen or more specifically Martin, ever specifically placed Custer there. The only way Benteen could know was tthrough Martin, or through his own binoculars in looking at the bluffs from Reno Ck. or wherever it was, that he was.
So there. You have it. The scouts pinpoint Custer's observation point. Martin confirms it. Benteen jotted what is essentially uncorrobated notes. That's it. The rest of the observations from the valley relate to the command moving to battle over the bluffs and Varnum is a case in point example.
A careful read of everything left by Martin then assures that Custer did not make further observations into the valley befor arriving in MTC.
You are staring into the reality in the text above which succinctly explains what you refuse to accept. It's taking an awful long time for you to see the light but we'll get you there. Supposition is the mother of something or other..... Ah, invention.
Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 20, 2024 5:08:09 GMT -6
Yes yes - SO you KEEP saying. Yet people did it. See Wagner at your link....again. was Fred lying too?? Yep - he sure did! And made a GREAT guess at who it was! I’ll believe DeRudio cause he said he saw who he saw RIGHT WHERE EVERYONE ELSE THERE SAID THEY WERE. And NO ONE has provided anything concrete to the contrary...just opinions. There is NO issue with where this location actually was - none. It is given/described VERY specificly by numerous people. IF anyone can show otherwise - that Custer was NOT there on pt7/G - fine...YOU can move past DeR, but then get to Martin, Kanipe, Benteen, Thompson, all the scouts, Godin, and etc. etc. next. I'll stick with the people who were there. Yes yes - so you KEEP saying. Unfortunately for you, it is only YOUR opinion, with NO evidence provided to back it up, and it is wrong per the facts and descriptions given by DeR, and the other numerous witnesses who were there. Meanwhile Benteen marked GC at G/pt 7 which was confirmed PER Martin and DeRudio and kanipe. They all corroborate all this. ALL describe the location...and clearly it is not at/near/past Edgerly Peaks. ALL confirm through several descriptors the high point 7/WH/Martin's Ridge...1/2mile past Reno. Once again you shouldn't just ignore them all, or change everyone's statemnts to match your notions...Because Bribin wrote an unrelated article. What "written accounts"? Written by whom? If only these mystical 'written accounts' existed huh? Cause just about every REAL written account of events - written by people actually there - located it almost exactly, just where DeR said. Yeah - 1/2 way down a ravine! And NO WHERE NEAR where anyone else puts him. Curtis pt 2 IS a joke!! All while the SAME SCOUTS said Custer WAS on Weir Hill, and also that they were left behind as he/his command moved to the right just past there down the (South) coulee. ENOUGH~~ NO ONE THERE SAID THEY SAW OR DESCRIBE CUSTER (or his troops) AT WEIR POINT. IF they did - you should post it. Zzzzzz. LOL! Are you seriously bored, or don't actually read this stuff, or what?? Holy cow. Cause this has been done and done about 100 times already. Maybe YOU should try something new - actually posting some REAL evidence/facts/1st hand info saying anything otherwise - if you have any....THAT hasnt happened yet - at all. Meanwhile - just read the thread - most of it is here. Was fred lying too? Applying a smell test to fred's test it is obvious should be) that he ran a suggestive digestive play on this. He knew who was going where and made observations from one and a half miles away. If I recall correctly, Havoscar erected a squeak with the relevant terrain viewed, on Youtube www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkdkVMAY8IYou can realise without any imagination, that in fred's mind, he recognised the two people at 2,600 yards. No one else would or could. In the case of DeRudio which I example, he would not have recognised his own family on the bluffs when looking at them from the distance he stated - unless having prior specific knowledge they would go there. Further, DeRudio was, in 1879, at Chicago, relating his erroneous conclusion to a map which was difficult to understand and upon which others had already practiced assumption. The margin for specific and relative errors is significant by being immense. Had Custer (himself) been the only person on he bluffs then it would be safe to conclude that DeRudio knew what he was talking about and was a reliable witness, and source, upon whom reliable deduction could be based and made. He was not at that time, and he is not today, despite your failure to recognise chicken and egg problems. Whether Custer was on the bluffs or not, DeRudio could not identify Custer definitively or reliably. He thought, and so do you without critical eye. There is no reliable first hand evidence to place Custer on Weir's Hill, and precious little that Weir was there other than Trumpeter Martin being interpretted that way. If, Martin was there, on the ground, with WMC, then we have a pearl to treasure but, we and you, do not have that luxury. As with Benteen and the 'G' spot location, taken as elevation 3411 by fred', there is absolutely no first hand record that Custer was ever on it. None. Martin did not say that Custer was there and the Crow scouts identified where Custer was stood looking at the valley when they were interviewed at the place by Curtis (ESC). You should note specific to this location indicated as '2' by Curtis - that the river runs right in under the bluff - proving the location to be Custer's point of observation and fitting exactly the route described by Trumpeter Martin. The river runs right in under the bluff where ESC indicated that Custer halted and inspected the valleys. The river runs right in under the bluff where ESC indicated that Custer halted and inspected the valleys. The river runs right in under the bluff where ESC indicated that Custer halted and inspected the valleys. I've said this three times so that you note it rather than injecting your interprtations of WMC. The scouts showed ESC where Custer went. Martin did not show WMC where Custer went. Benteen did not indicate that Martin showed him (Benteen) where Custer viewed the valley from. Without that corroboration, Benteen's information is unreliable and no bsis for anything regarding location. He was not there with Custer, or able to see Custer looking from the bluffs and therefore cn only be considered offering hearsay and or supposition. If Martin had been reliably identified as Benteen's source ten Bob's your Uncle, but that safeguard does not exist from Benteen, it does not exist with WMC, it does not exist. The reality is the location given to ESC by the scouts who were there, at the time Custer did it. I shall pick apart your case at my leisure with context, reality, and precions; as time comes available to help ensure that such errant misinterpretation of rolling snowball logic does not persist. Do let me know when you can confirm Martin was there on the bluffs with WMC and I shall be forced to admit that you are right. You are not and cannot build a case based in fact so I'm melting your snowball.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 20, 2024 10:34:10 GMT -6
Among the quick-fire quotes offered in your dilatory argument, J41, is this: 'A. Yes, sir, and upstream too. It was the highest point around there. I went on the top of it afterwards, on the 27th, with Captain Benteen'. This does not state that I went ontop of it with General Custer on the 25th - does it. No it doesn't. Quite happy to chew around the wider contexts with you but Custer was at Curtis's '2' location, and Curtis fully explained this in his notes of the thing. You are saying, that Martin said, Custer went on Weir's Hill and that Weir's Hill is the highest point. Custer did not go on Weir's Hill and Martin never said that he did. Martin went on that hill with Benteen on the 27th, and stated so. I have re-read the Chicago testimony and WAG's stuff and WMC, also - none state that Custer was on Weir's Hill. The three Crow scouts never said he was there. Curley never said he was there. Kanipe did not say he was there. None of the pont stealers said he was there and of course they were most certainly up there at the relevant times. They did not see Custer on Wei's Hill. No one saw Custer on Weir's Hill and importantly, that is because he never went there that anyone who 'could' see him, or accompany him, has stated. There's a lovely read HERE about the battle's research. The website is pretty cool in that broad interesting way of academic arts. The article author is a PHD Psycho of considerable experience. You may be of the mind that 7th Cavalry rode around the Plains in columns of formation following Custer at their head. This would explain how you cannot perhaps divorce the officer from the battalions. Custer operated with the regiment's HQ which was entirely unattached and operated willy-nilly so to speak although it might attach itself to a company, battalion, wing or entire regiment if that suited Custer. Consider this - Custer followed his scouts onto the bluffs while Keogh and Cooke rode after Reno to Ford A to get a last drink with him. Perhaps they shook hands and wished each other luck and a meeting on the other side. Anyswayeepoos......... Custer's called Martin to him, romped off as was his want to undertake a commanders' survey of the situation. We know from Martin what was seen and that Custer then went to the command of Keogh and Yate's battalions and rode on off into MTC. The view from Weir 7, is absolutely no improvement upon that from Curtis 2. I suggest that Custer understood that when when he studied the terrain from Curtis 2. There was no point to visiting Weir 7, after doing Curtis 2. Thepony stealers did not find the five companies on the bluffs anywhere when they arrived and Reno's battalion were not there either. Therefore the Keogh and Yates battalions were long gone beyond Horizon Ridge when the ponystealers arrived on the bluffs from the valley. This mitigates against Custer being at Weir 7 - full stop, while DeRudio was guidon picking the valley or Reno deciding to go hunting Elvis.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 20, 2024 11:08:08 GMT -6
Much of the testimony during the Court of Inquiry was not adequately preserved and over time degraded to such a poor state that some estimates by researches suggest that up to 40% has been lost to history. The official military records even include newspaper clippings of the period as part of the record due to popular interest and the lack of reliable court reporting. In our present climate, it would arguably not be a case to use as a basis for proper legal proceedings, unless a person was committed to showing how to avoid recording a case.
In 1933, under the authority of the Office of the Judge Advocate General command, Colonel William A. Graham created a typed copy of approximately 1600 pages. His secretary, Helen J. Bury and Frances J. Burke were directed to create as an exact record as possible of the existing records and newspaper clippings.
Trumpeter Martin at Chicago: Custer stopped to water his horses for about 10 minutes. There appeared to be a lodge pole trail there; then they moved straight ahead 300 yards, following the lpt. They moved very fast. Custer then moved to the right a little for another 4 to 500 yards. That's a 1/2 mile and about 3/4 of a mile east of Ford A. Custer turned up to the bluffs by a "big bend on the hill" and rode on to the top of the ridge about 12 noon - to Curtis's later indicated map point '2'. Where were the five companies and headquarters whilst Custer surveyed the Little Bighorn valley. Why did Custer wave his hat? Where was Reno? Where was Keogh? where was Yates? Where was Cooke? Where was Benteen?
Where was Gall?
Let us see.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 20, 2024 13:08:17 GMT -6
Going back, to continue. A past discussion First off good to see Gerry fronting up , it was no big issue but still an all it take balls . Here's the thing though ; if we have professional photographers of the era embellishing their work for whatever reason , are not the orals and artifacts prone to the same interference? Cheers One of the enjoyable aspects of these boards is going through all the links provided by the members, herosrest in particular; as he steadfastly bombards us with links like cannon balls lying in the valley. The following info is interesting from one of HRs links. As it appears that I, for one, fall into every one of her categories of a so-called Custer buff. Buchholtz wrote that "Others critically, almost gleefully, analyze everything their colleagues write", so here is what Ethan E. Harris had to write: "One of the most important standards by which we judge an account to be historical is credibility. There is usually a witness that can verify the trustworthiness of a claim. Even if it’s the enemy, someone substantiates the story. It’s possible not to have this information and so we depend on the chronological or geographical details in a story to increase our trust in the details." EEH "There must be corroborating testimony, either by another person or through descriptions of an event that are undeniably accurate and largely consistent with other accounts of the battle." EEH The Thompson narrative has always had it's problem with credibility primarily due to lack of witnesses. That is a problem that I have always dealt with. That brought me to the Thompson timeline or my "scroll" that has been in discussion. It is event driven, in chronological order, taking into consideration of geographical observations made by Thompson, corroborated with events and descriptions of events that occurred during the battle. That is what I do, besides scouring oral history, studying links to minutia, belonging to organizations that study this battle, discuss what others have written and several times put on my Cavalry uniform and participate in representing Peter Thompson. It is all good. Gerry Validation for Gerry Billings Gazette article sorry it's a paywall item. Gerry's tribute to Peter Thompson. There was a discussion of Edward S. Curtis's research and information involving Gerry and point 2 on the map. When Custer reached this outlook, probably one-half to three-quarters of the Indian encampment was in plain view. [Note: Curtis is mistaken here. From any point south of Reno Hill, perhaps one quarter of the Indian encampment was in plain view, with the remainder being effectively blocked by the Weir Peaks further north.] ***** *****, I would have to disagree with you on the view of the village from this outlook. This one point is where the village is in three-quarters view. Weir Peak does not block the view of the valley floor. Only the Sans Arc circle would not be in view. Private Peter Thompson wrote, "About a half mile further on we came in sight of the Indian village, and it was a truly imposing sight to anyone who had not seen anything like it before. For about three miles on the left bank of the river the teepees were stretched, the white canvas gleaming in the sunlight."As I follow the Thompson narrative and was severally chastised for agreeing with Thompson's three mile view of the valley floor and the view of the village; I needed to verify the vantage point of this outlook. This point is 200 yards south of the south Reno Battlefield fence line. This also agrees with the Curtis map point 2, where Custer moved more to the west and viewed the village, stopping as a bird. It is from this point the the troops broke into a gallop. Thompson wrote, "When the companies came in sight of the village they gave the regular charging yell and urged their horses into a gallop." The point is there, as it was when Curtis trailed along with the Crow Scouts. Gerry Thus we can accept Curtis 2 as entirely valid, realistic, and actual. Custer was there and with a good view of what lay downriver in the valley.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 20, 2024 13:33:34 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 21, 2024 8:51:53 GMT -6
Wow - a lot there to unpack....of the same old same old inventions and unsubstantiated opinions...again. Ok - i'll give it a go one more time. Lets just stick/start with the obvious & numerous mistakes you made over and over... THIS says it all. THIS IS WHY you are struggling.You choose to discount or ignore all these statements & facts. All the data presented is VERY relevant, because it ALL refers to the reality of what is what with special attention to the one place under discussion - the highest point point 7, AKA Weir's Hill/G. This is where Custer was seen/located when he 1st saw part of the village. The data is also very relevant and reliable because so much is 1st hand info given by people who were there. All this data (and more) can be used to verify and yes - to prove that fact. Nicely. Specifically. Explicitly. One conclusion may/should be reached - correctly and without any confusion. Custer 1st saw the village from Weir's Hill/G/pt 7. Why so sure? Simply this….because SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE THERE STATED SO. You're welcome. And? Is there a point you are making, or...what?? We KNOW the high point 7/G/WH where Custer was located/seen was confirmed on the 27th, with DeR. Martin was there with Benteen on the 25th AND the 27th. Why the 'argument'?!? See at the least Martin, Benteen, and DeRudio, and might throw in Kanipe, as he went along too. None? AT all? Depite all those there who said otherwise? Sure there isn't. You say this once again, clearly while ignoring everyone there who said just that. See post above, & below & various other statements made by those there. Wow. you REALLY have to read better. No way you can miss this, unless you just plain choose to be blind - to ignore the observations stated...as we know you do. Read it all again. Each and every of those statements ARE RELEVANT AND RELATED AND RELIABLE AND CAN BE VERIFIED.
They do what Martin did…confirm both those vital points you struggle with. I'll baby-bird you, again...A=B, B=C, therefore A=C... Martin said Custer was at the highest point when he 1st saw the village. Martin said Custer was at point 7 when he 1st saw the village. Martin said Custer was on Weir's Hill when he 1st saw the village.Benteen said G is the high point where Custer 1st saw the village. {highest point = point 7 = Weir's Hill = village = high point = G} DeRudio said Custer was on the highest point when he saw him. DeRudio said Custer was at point 7 when he saw him. Benteen said he was at the highest point 7 with Martin DeRudio said he confirmed point 7 as the highest point where Custer was with Benteen Herendeen said Weir's Hill is the highest point, and its at that location {+/-1/2 mile below Reno} {highest point = point 7 = GC seen = Weir's Hill=1/2mile} Edgerly said point 7 is the highest point, and its at that location. DeRudio said point 7 is the highest point were he saw GC, and its at that location. Martin said where Custer saw the village was the highest point point 7 and its at that location.The scouts said Custer saw the village from the highest point on the ridge just north of Reno entrenchment, its at that location. {highest point = point 7 = village = GC seen = just north of reno} Point 7 is identified numerous times specifically as the highest point, at that location. Weir's Hill is identified several times specifically as the highest point, at that location. Point 7 is at that location and is where Martin said Custer 1st saw part of the village. Weir's Hill is at that location and is where Martin said Custer 1st saw part of the village. The highest hill is at that location, and its where the scouts said Custer saw the village and Reno. Point 7 is the highest point where DeRudio & Martin confirmed Custer was/where he 1st saw the village. Benteen confirmed the high point G is where Custer 1st saw the village, with Martin and DeRudio. etc etc etc. Cheering. Waving. River. Distances. Skirmish lines. Retreats. DeWolf. See? All this and lots more related & relevant data identified point 7/Weir's Hill/G was THE ONE & THE SAME high point on the bluffs. That it was identified as THE place where Custer was. That it was located at the exact & correct location - explicitly, and via numerous descriptors and distances and bearings. Highly relevant. Highly reliable. There is LOTS of other related/reliable/relevant data of course. SO even IF for some foolish reasons anyone would prefer to to discount some/all that presented above, say because they dont like WMC or the RCOI - oh well. Good luck to them! There is more - and in excellent agreement. Besides, you do NOT have to rely on WMC for verifiable confirmation, you can rely on those there. WMC info does certainly help corroborate everything though (except curtis of course - which no one does). I again recommend you no longer ignore or dismiss any of this data. So - which is it? Is it 'no first hand record'? Or is it 'only 1 record that matters'? Hmm...either way - sure - let's once again just choose to ignore/dismiss all the other witnesses that place GC just there. THAT is...whatever. Your opinion on what matters is YOUR opinion only - with NO support. WHY do you choose to ignore about a dozen of the people there?!? Of course Martin DOES place Custer EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY on point 7/Weir's Hill/highest point. (They have been shown to be all the same thing. Also, see “G”. (just as everyone corroborated. See above.) Sort of. You should get beyond Curtis. Give him the same or even less credibility than Camp. Martin w/Camp on this topic (and numerous others) is corroborated. Curtis isnt. Curtis timing per his own sources does not work. His location per his own sources does not work. His sources gave contrasting statements that were verified. Nice pics though. It is quite clear where Martin and Custer were. Thanks to Martin, and DeRudio, and Benteen, and Kanipe, AND all the scouts, and numerous others, we KNOW they were on the highest point on the bluffs aka point 7 aka Weir’s Hill aka G. And they and plenty others told us just where that high point is located. Issue here is - per the witenesses that verified high point is clearly NOT where you have Curtis placing it. Read above post for all those confirming statements, including Martin's which are very specific...and the others made by those who were also there...including Curtis' own sources. "Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there." - which we KNOW FROM MARTIN, who equated pt 7 with Custer with the highest hill with Weir’s Hill IS point 7/is Weir's Hill/G. He located it. He identified it. He named it referred to it. He named it explicitly. Others, too, confirmed it and its location. “Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a look at village""Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched).From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting."Your blind faith that the Curtis story/map is on par with anyone else who was actually there & who actually stated what was what (including the scouts, who stated other then what Curtis said they said), is always interesting. At least he did provide a unique take. Unconfirmed - but unique. Yes you CAN assume - AND you can KNOW - 100%. Sure - they weren't specific. You CAN read?…See above, and the above post for the abundant and quite specific statements doing just that. Sigh - but ONCE again let us go over THIS 'argument' of yours... " G - the high point where Custer first saw the village" - that is pretty darn specific. " He{Martin} did after we had reached that highest point at the figure “7.” - is also very specific. As was Martin: "A. It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point “7”" - very specific. "Q. What direction General Custer went after he got to the point 7? - very specifc and clear question. Which martin answered ‘they moved to point 8’. "Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there." - which we KNOW is called Weir's Hill/identified as Point 7 = G - quite specific, more so as it is combined & verified with/by everything else stated. “Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a look at village…" - extremely specific - "Weir's Hill” - which was long confirmed as the highest point/aka point 7 via the RCOI, located precisely, and through equality of several descriptors from numerous spources is aka G. Nice it was definitively located by a surveyor - right where the primaries ALL said it was. See Edgerly Herendeen, Benteen, DeR, Maguire, Hare, Godfrey etc etc for more confirmation re: point 7 = Weir's Hill = highest point = where Custer 1st saw village = G. See above post with more statements by them, and others. As you know they almost all describe its location very well, too. "Yes sir and up stream too it was the highest point around there. I went on the top of it afterwards on the 27 with Capt. Benteen" - along with everything else he provided DeR is very specific. Sure. Curtis the photo guy was the only 1 correct. You are mistaken. Martin said NOTHING to confirm Curtis. (Martin did say everything to confirm DeRudio) Benteen was mistaken too I guess. Or you are. Hmmm...I choose that it Benteen was correct. Clue - Curtis is in alone & IN STARK DISAGREEMENT with Martin AND everyone else there, who did/do confirm each other - specifically. Benteen, Martin, DeR, Kanipe, etc. etc., even the scouts - all agreed on where the high point Custer was known to be is located. It is NOT the low point south of reno where you say Curtis said was the place under discussion. Curitis' map pt 2 makes little sense as HE described it. It matches...nothing. Yet THAT is what you choose to go with. Curious. This you got right - but NOT via Curtis map. See the data above, and the whole thread to see all the actual statements by Martin and the scouts...they ALL located Custer on the high point 7/Weir's Hill/G, NORTH of Reno entrenchment/near Hodgson's marker/etc. If Fact, ALL of them - Martin, the scouts, DeR, Benteen...ALL locate THAT highest place GC was about 1/2mile NORTH of Reno.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 21, 2024 9:45:06 GMT -6
No, you really WON'T. You haven't, you can't, you don't and so you won't. NOT UNTIL and unless you come up with some 1st hand facts that dispute all, or even any of the witnesses. So far…zilch. All you have of substance is the highly suspect Curtis; and your view he is the only worthy story teller, while dismissing the RCOI, the witnesses, WMC, etc. THAT is what is so tedious! YOUR opinions do not argue cases. Facts do. Find some. Curtis is interesting, but stands alone & in contrast*. Unless you have REAL data THAT IS confirmed by those who were there - you have little. Curtis's…unique take ain't it. You hating WMC aint it. You saying DeR wrong aint it. You dismissing the RCOI aint it. Your excuses and inventions aint it. That is all smoke and mostly nonsense. *You can place the Scouts in "Custer told us to go to the high hill ahead - the highest hill just north of where Reno later entrenched" camp. Ya know - "just NORTH of Reno" - ‘near where Hodgon's headstone was later located’; the highest hill where Custer was seen to wave, and last seen by Reno's men? Overlooking/just below where DeWolf was killed? Yep. *Cause THAT is what THE SCOUTS said.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 21, 2024 9:59:17 GMT -6
So what!?! At issue is the fact that NO one else said Custer was there. No one else described that low point or its location as being the high hill where Custer was seen and saw the village. The only source for Curtis’s story is Curtis. Though his story matches Martin,DeR, Benteen, the scouts, et' al, his map just don't. Not even the scouts confirm it. They too place Custer on his lookout explicitly just "NORTH of Reno", at/crossing martin’s ridge, then moving to the right down the coulee and leaving them behind. Martin and edgerly specifically explain and locate the same point/hill/ridge & the same route. The scouts gave other contrary statements that were also confirmed. They also say they met Benteen near ford A...more Curtis dispute. Where Martin places Custer WAS NOT AT THE LOW POINT ON THE BLUFFS DOWN A RAVINE where Curtis marked him. At all. Pt 2 is unique to Curtis alone. It is NOT the highest point. It is NOT just below DeWolf. It is NOT 1/2mile below Reno. It is NOT the high point just north of the Reno entrenchment. It is not 1/2 mile above Edgerly Peaks. It is NOT 500yrds from point 8. It is NOT 5-600yards/1700ft from Reno retreat. It is NOT the highest point on the ridge. It is not pt 7. It is not Weir's Hill. It is NOT where the troops were seen. It is not where Custer was seen, nor located. It is NOT the summit of a high hill. It's a fantasy opinion YOU equate the 2 locations - as there is very little supports this. Every other witness must be dismissed to do so, as you do so constantly. No one else there made statements that agree with Curtis. Even the scouts he supposedly relied on state otherwise numerous times. They shoot down their own story (or Curtis's version of it). So Curtis was wrong about that point, and/or your take that HIS mark is where Martin - or anyone else but Curtis - placed GC is wrong. ESC may have certainly been told, and he may have been shown, but his lookout pt 2 is not in agreement with anyone. It is certainly NOT the Lookout referred to and precisely located in 1876, at the RCOI, or anytime after. No - YOU can. WE really can't go all in on Curtis. Not without dismissing everyone else. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Because no one corroborates his version. Not even his own sources. Not his own description. But - IF - IF Custer actually was there - then he stopped twice - THIS low point/ravine time 'only as a big bird alights and then flies on'. No summit involved. No high hill. Not there anyway. Yet no one WITH GC mentined this quick pause either. So maybe it is what its shown to be - just a suspect story that came via Curtis, and his bad map skills. Well look at that - even Curtis saw the reality from where Custer actually was on G/pt7/WH. It is too bad he marked it wrong. "Some of Reno's men had seen a party of Custer's command, including Custer himself, on the bluffs about the time the Indians began to develop in Reno's front. The party was heard to cheer, and seen to wave their hats as if to give encouragement, and then they disappeared behind the hills."Yep…at the highest point on the edge of the bluffs, around 1/2 mile north of Reno…(which is aka Weir’s Hill/pt 7)... You had better read Kanipe and Martin and Curley (and Newell and Varnum, and Martin, and DeR, the Rees, etc. etc.) - who also tell us exactly where this took place. Not at all strange it agrees with Thompson's descriptions...just not Gerry's or your notions of Thompson. (this location re:Thompson is also confirmed via Rees, Martin, Kanipe, etc. THEY were actually there). 1/2 mile further from where they hit the ridge? Where they waved/cheered? You guessed it - Martin's Ridge and Weir's Hill. "NORTH of Reno" - at the highest point of the bluffs. 5-600 yards below the retreat - 1/2mile below Reno. Just like everyone who was actually there said. "Trumpeter Martin October 24, 1908. Says that before Custer reached High ridge he marched in column of twos with Gray Horses in center of column His description of route agrees with Curley and Knipe exactly.""Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to." "Then there was a kind of big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village at the same time."
"Custer was trotting and galloping along with companies in column of twos, all 5 companies abreast, the men cheering and eager for a fight and that after the highest point on the bluffs was reached the men, through their eagerness, broke into something like disorder, as previously noted.""Custer must have been 1/2 or 3/4 miles north of where Reno was corraled, on edge of bluff, where he could see river. Says he was going fast when he saw.""it {the Grays} was probably a quarter of a mile below {Reno}...""After General Custer saw the village with no Indians in it I suppose he was glad and he pulled off his hat and gave a cheer..."Cheer where? Weir? At that highest point point 7/WH/G. "...came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff."Yep.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 21, 2024 10:05:32 GMT -6
Stop. You're inventing excuses. Now tell us again why WMC sucks, and should just be ignored Tell us again how the marked Maguire map is smudged, and it/the RCOI are garbage, and should just be ignored Tell us again why it is impossible for DeRudio to be right even though he was dead nuts on, and should just be ignored, Tell us again how Curtis and only Curtis was correct, and even though no one supports him, everyone else can be ignored. Tell us again how below and above and north and south and up and down are not what they are, and statements using them should be ignored. Tell us again how Weir POINT is now Horizon Ridge and is now the highest point - add a picture or 10; and though no one saw or located Custer or his troops there, any other high point should be ignored Tell us again how hill heights are relative, so the observations made by those actually all about them numerous times should be ignored Tell us how confused you are, so everyone else just has to be, about actual relevant data and how hard it is for you to make sense of it all, even though it reliably corroborates and the statements presented can be verified. Tell us again about any other altered/made up/unsupported/nonexistent/opnion-based gack you wish to toss out, and how we can't trust the actual data/facts stated by those there. But please - TRY something new - cause if you have any true verifiable actual facts, which can be supported by those actually on the ground - it would be WAY better.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 25, 2024 19:23:48 GMT -6
Custer with 850 men and Indian scouts and guides started up the Rosebud on June 22. Early in the morning of the 24th, while the Custer command was passing up the Rosebud, the scouts, who were well in advance, saw a few Sioux scouts or hunters. Later in the day they reported to Custer that they had seen these men and that the Sioux had crossed over into the valley of the Little Bighorn. Custer seemed a little excited, and instructed the scouts to first go to the top of the mountains forming the divide between the Rosebud and the Little Bighorn. The sun was now very low, and the scouts started with the command following. In the scouting party were Lieutenant Varnum, Mitch Boyer, the five Crow scouts -- White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, Hairy Moccasins, White Swan and Paints His Face Half Yellow -- a half-breed, and some Arikara. The scouting party followed up the Rosebud until they reached a small creek [ie. Davis Creek] that heads in the mountains. They followed this stream, almost reaching the summit of the divide before daylight. Here they lay down to rest. At approaching dawn, Boyer and White Man Runs Him left the others asleep and went to a high point at the summit, usually referred to as the Crow's Nest. Far below them and to the west spread the Little Bighorn valley, over which hung a mist-like cloud -- the smoke from a large Indian encampment. The Crow called to the others to ascend. Varnum or Boyer sent a message by Red Star, and Arikara scout, to Custer who had by that time ascended close to the divide between the Rosebud and the Little Bighorn. When Red Star came hurriedly to Custer, he was asked by the latter in sign, "Have you seen the cutthroats [ie. Sioux]?" On receiving the scouts reply, Custer read the note, and then with four of five men rode at once to the Crow's Nest, from which vantage he studied the distance for some time and viewed the encampment with its great herd of horses on the hills beyond. This outlook, which affords a splendid view of the entire region, is about 15 miles from the encampment site and is at the head of Davis creek, which flows into the Rosebud, and Middle Reno creek, which flows into the Little Bighorn. The creek flowing down to the Little Bighorn stretches clearly before one, and much of the Sioux encampment was plainly sight. The writers party visited this point in mid-afternoon, when considerable haze hovered over the valley, yet even the small cabins now on the campsite could be discerned with the naked eye, and with the aid of a glass, smaller objects could be readily identified. While the party stood on this point, two railway trains were seen to pass along the valley. These details are mentioned because it has been asserted that Custer was not able to see the valley clearly from this outlook. The scouts say that the white tepees were pitched so thickly in the valley that it had the appearance of being covered with a sheet, and that the hills beyond were brown with horses. The outlook afforded such a perfect prospect that with the assistence of the scouts, who were thoroughly familiar with the ground, a commander could easily have formulated a plan of attack and have found no reason for materially changing it. Custer discussed with his scouts the situation, the nature of the ground, and the best route to follow, and then rode back to his command, which was just below him at the right. In the early forenoon the command [crossed the divide and] moved down the western slope of Wolf mountains and out on the plain, and thus began the most unfortunate day ever experienced by United States troops in Indian warfare. Before leaving the summit one Crow scout, Hairy Moccasins, was sent ahead to scan the ground and obtain a closer view of the village. Proceeding down the valley, past the oft-mentioned death-lodge of a Sioux, he climbed a pine-clad hill, near the junction of the middle and north branches of Reno creek (Curtis note: This creek is sometimes referred to as Sun-dance creek or as Benteen creek, and is known to the Indians as Thick Ash creek), observing the Sioux everywhere across the Little Bighorn, and a few, presumably Sioux scouts, in the valley of Reno creek. Hairy Moccasins rode back and reported the size and position of the Sioux encampment and said the hostiles were not running away, as had been thought. On receiving this report Custer hurried the command down the valley and halted at the junction of the two forks on a fair-sized flat, now, as it probably was then, a prairie-dog village. At this point White Man Runs Him designated to the author the site where the troops were halted and the spot where Custer stood. This was where Custer and Reno separated. Reno advanced down the valley at its left margin. He had with him as scouts White Swan and Paints His Face Half Yellow, both Crows, and several Arikara. The distance from the point of separation as travelled by Reno to where heh began his fight is, by the United States Geological Survey map, 3 1/2 miles. With Custer were the Crow scouts, White Man Runs Him, Hairy Moccasins, Goes Ahead, and Curly, and Mitch Boyer as interpreter and scout. Custer's command bore off to the right down a sharp bank, across a narrow flat, then across a small cut of a dry creek, and out on a rising plain, Custer, with his staff and scouts in the lead and their horses at a gallop. The course was gradually up and out of the valley of Reno creek. Off to the left Reno's command was in full sight, moving down the valley almost within hailing distance. As Custer's command emerged from the valley it passed, for two or three minutes, from the sight of Reno's men, then came up close to the crest of the hill overlooking the valley. Just before reaching this crest -- the distance is about a quarter of a mile -- the command was halted and the scouts were sent ahead. They appeared at the top of the hill, sillouetted against the sky, and signalling to Custer to follow; he and his staff went at once to the summit. This is Point 2 on the map, and is where Custer was seen to wave a salutation to Reno's command. To quote Lieutenant-Colonel Bowen, U.S.A. : "Some of Reno's men had seen a party of Custer's command, including Custer himself, on the bluffs about the time the Indians began to develop in Reno's front. The party was heard to cheer, and seen to wave their hats as if to give encouragement, and then they disappeared behind the hills." This statement by Reno's men verifies the scouts story and proves that Custer's route paralleled the river rather than went far back from it, as some have stated, and as his line of march is traced on many published maps. When Custer reached this outlook, probably one-half to three-quarters of the Indian encampment was in plain view, Reno had already forded the river and was riding down the valley toward the Sioux camp. The distance from the point of separation to where Custer now stood on the outlook is one mile, and to where Reno was seen along the Little Bighorn beginning his march down the valley, it was the same distance. From these points, either or both commanders could have ridden into the Sioux camp in less than 10 minutes. Custer stopped here, as the Indians expressed it, "only as a big bird alights and then flies on." The ground in general is a sharp ridge sloping abruptly toward the river on one hand, and gently on the other, this easy slope ending in a draw, which from here to the point where the attack on Custer began parallels the river. The peculiar topography enabled Custer and his staff to keep close to the crest where they could have a full view of the valley, while at the same time the troops were entirely ignorant from what was in the valley on the other side of the ridge. Within one minute from Custer's starting from this first point of vantage he passed over the ground from which Reno's disordered force was later to make its stand. This spot is now strewn with the bleached bones of troop-horses and pack-mules. Hugging (WHAT A LOVELY WORD) the ridge for a time, Custer passed behind a hill and out in full view of the valley again. This last point is one of the highest in the region and gave a perfect view of the entire Indian encampment and the ground on which Reno made his attack. It is Point 3 on the map, and is a mile and a quarter from the scene of Reno's fight in the valley. The nature of the intervening ground is such that cavalry could have covered it at a lope. The distance from here to the point of separation is two and one-half miles. Custer's route thence practically paralleled the valley for a distance, then turned to the left down a dry creek, by the Indians called Medicine Tail Coulee. Here he rode out close to the river, and probably planned to ford at this point and attack the Sioux. But the Indians had now discovered him and were gathered closely on the opposite side, and if the plan had been to cross, it was given up without an effort, even without going quite to the stream. It has been said that this was not a good ford -- that the river had cut banks and quicksand. On the contrary, there is no better fording place on the river. The ground slopes down without a bank of any sort, and the opposite side is likewise favorable to passage, although a little higher, and there is no sign of a treacherous bottom. From here Custer turned slightly, led his command back up the valley a short distance, then swung to the left, and with Boyer and some of his staff dismounted and went out on a fairly high point overlooking the whole encampment. This is Point 4 on the map. The configuration of the land is, as at the other stopping place such now that the troops now dismounted were back of him, and in part, at least, out of sight of the enemy. At this time some Indians were crossing the river here and there, and others were stealthily creeping up in Custer's front. When Custer had reached this point, Reno's fight in the valley had closed, and his men, along with Benteen, were together on the bluffs, so that the entire Sioux force was free to attack Custer. Lieutenat-Colonel Bowen says: "While waiting for the ammunition pack-mules, Major Reno concluded to make an effort to recover and bury the body of Lieutenant Hodgson. At the same time he loaded up a few men with canteens to get water for the command; they were to accompany the rescuing party; the effort was futile; the party was ordered back after being fired upon by some Indians who doubtless were scalping the dead near the foot of the bluffs. At this time there were a large number of horsemen, Indians, in the valley, at least one thousand, says Benteen. Suddenly they all started down the valley, and in a few minutes scarcely one was to be seen." According to the testimony of almost innumberable Sioux participants, this rush of warriors down the valley commenced when they had sighted Custer's command, and this was the beginning of their attack on him. Custer personally, while sitting there, shot at Indians who were reckless enough to come within range. Boyer sat at Custer's side and the Crow scouts were behind with the troops. Curly had deserted Custer more than an hour before the attack, the place of the desertion being close to Point 2, where he joined some of Reno's deserting Arikara scouts, who had stolen Sioux horses in the valley previous to the beginning of the fight there and were running away. As these fleeing scouts passed Custer's command on the hill, Curly joined them and made his escape. As there has been so much discussion relative to Curly's part in the affair, it seems necessary to present some of the evidence bearing particularly on the action of this scout. The three Crow scouts, White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Moccasins, stated positively that Curly ran away at the time and in the manner mentioned, and without leading questions, the Arikara scouts verified their assertions. John Burkman, Custer's hostler, also supported the statements of the Crows, having personally seen Curly with the escaping Arikara; while Curly himself, when sharply questioned, admitted that he was never anywhere near the actual fight. The only knowledge he has of the affair was gained from a distant outlook. Boyer called White Man Runs Him, who came up to him on his hands and knees, when Boyer said to him, "You have done what you agreed to do -- brought us to the Sioux camp, now go back to the pack-train and live." The scouts then mounted and rode away, and as they came in sight of the attacking Sioux, many shots were fired at them, but they were soon out of range. They said they did not ride hard very long, but as soon as well out of range proceeded more slowly and watched the fight. Theirs was only a distant view, hence they could give no details of the encounter. Custer mounted at the time the scouts left him and began his retreat, and it was at this point that seven bodies were found by the burying squad. None of these men had empty cartridges, which clearly indicates that they were killed in the first attack, before there had been any considerable firing by the troops. Custer made no attack, the whole movement being a retreat. Whether he thought only of withdrawing far enough back from the river to make a stand, or had undertaken a long retreat to the mountains, cannot be told. The Sioux thought he was trying to reach the distant hills, and headed him off, forcing the retreat in a line more or less paralleling the river. A careful study of the ground convinces one that within miles there was no more favorable ground for a stand than that occupied by Custer's troops when the Sioux made the attack. To the west was the circling cut-bank protecting a third of his line; to the east his position commanded all the immediate points; there were no hills near enough to form a satisfactory commanding position for the Indians and he was within 50 yards of water. We move into some of the study which looses its way from here on in, principally because of 'presentations' of the White Man Runs Him, Curtis, and their interpretter. He died in Billings cell you know - most unfortunate. It was understood, from the moment that Curtis's notes were donated to SI, that the three Crow's met Reno's advance to Weir Point at the time of the retreat back on the coraral - and not at the time that Benteen and Godfrey rode up from Reno's Creek. That may help, but probably not. It is a matterr of published record and a matter in line with others that researchers are unable to grasp. Did Martin state that he took Benteen to 3411 G Weir - and told him Custer was there? No. If you fwwl that he did - that is, Martin stated that he went to 3411 G Weir, and told Benteen that Custer was there looking at the villafe - then please give the source and I will humbly apologise and offer something or othr in pennance. You cannot because it didn't happen. Benteen was not there to see Custer at 3411 G Weir and therefore how did Benteen know, to write it on his map? He didn't, unless he guessed the location in having seen the five companies ride onto the bluffs while the HDK battalion were in Reno Ck.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 25, 2024 19:43:22 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jan 25, 2024 19:51:37 GMT -6
You suggested quite loudly that WMC sucks. That is because his works span a decade - much of it undated. Given that, and his own statement the only person who would ever understand the notes, was him - then obviously it is those drawing conclusions from his notes who present problems. WMC found Curley to be reliable and to have given a realistic overview of events. I tend and will rely upon that rather than you convictions and fascination with the height of ant hills. You seem to accept, that stood on Weir Hill, it is possible to see the terrain upon which the battle was fought. You conclude this based on a statement that the Stone House can be seen from Weir Hill. Good luck with that. Really, I wish you good luck and to all those who decide to sail with you on it.
DeRudio did not properlt or at all, identify Custer on the bluffs. That is complete rubbish and a fine example of flaws running throughout the testimonial records from Chicago. He didn't see Custer because it was impossible to do it. Therefore that testimony is worthless and besides this, every officer involved with hearing it said - understood that it was rubbish of the highest order. They made aliving doing obsrvation. They had been doing that for decades.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 25, 2024 20:03:58 GMT -6
My critical review of your poor understanding of what WMC left is nearly finished and will hopefully provide a worthwhile guide for future generations.
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