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Post by herosrest on May 19, 2023 17:13:24 GMT -6
I have revisited fred's..... was it 2014?..... Defeat into Victory and he gave/gives eight Company E men positively identified during burials. My underlaying point of course was that eight do not a company or platoon make in any way, particularly because of the method of burial. Was it, and is it, reasonable to assume that deaths during melee would indicate that all those laying dead, disrobed and unidentifiable; were the men of a single unit. It is unreasonable because there was considerable movement around the field which ever model of events you favour or have developed. It shouldn't be too long now before the new evidence supporting Ford D scenarios emerges from Michael Donahue and he doesn't do stuff by half, so perhaps Sturgis's platoon were wiped out on Curley's ford down by the railway line. It should be interesting since he will butt heads with another very well researched battle modeller at the reveal.
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Post by herosrest on May 19, 2023 17:29:33 GMT -6
Addendum......... linkThe third fort within the Yellowstone Basin began as Cantonment Reno. It was established on October 12, 1876 pursuant to Special Orders No. 131 issued by the Department of the Platte on September 22nd of the same year. It was three miles above the old Fort Reno of the Bozeman Trail days; and on July 17, 1877 was moved north to a location three miles west west of the present town of Buffalo, Wyoming. On August 30th, the name was changed from Cantonment Reno to Fort Mckinney, in honour of the officer killed at Dull Knife's village. M.H. Brown,1961, p316It's an interesting map, and one I researched a while to no end trying to discover the author. Be that as it mey, it is an intriguing document entirely unsupported by any evidence for burials or bodies in the valley below Deep Ravine. Sorry, my supporting link on Cantonment Reno, voided itself. The map resides within the papers of the CO, 11th Infantry, who bulit and garrisoned Fort Custer, George P. Buell. He was promoted Colonel on March 20, 1879, in command of the 15th U.S. Infantry Regiment. He died in 1883 while on duty in Nashville, Tennessee, and is buried there at Mount Olivet Cemetery. It is reasonable therefore that the map dates during the period June 1877 to March 1879. Fort Custer. It is one of the minor aspects of the history that It was from Fort Custer that Captain George K. Sanderson, Company C, Eleventh Infantry, was sent to the Custer battlefield to police and rebury any exposed remains in April 1879. This was after Buell departed, and interred remains of eleven horses and body parts of four humans. 2nd Cavalry also operated from the fort and I believe although have not researched it fully, that James Sanks Brisbin then gained command of the outpost. Brisbin certainly signed the Order's for Capt. Owen J. Sweet, to take his company of 25th Infantry to the battleground in 1890, and place the markers for fallen soldiers. I never managed to uncover the orders by 2nd Cavalry for Roe in 1880 and setting the monument, or the subsequent repairs of the stonework and fencing before the 10th Anniversary. Curley at the monument I forgot. Buell's wife visited the battlefield and tended graves. A photograph which Keogh carried when killed, was recovered some years later. Guess who it was an image of. Keogh was of course involved with matters of the heart inNewYork, where he is buried. anecdote: Keogh knew and served with Edward S. Curtis's father. I believe that he spent some time with the family after ACW.
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Post by herosrest on May 19, 2023 18:30:28 GMT -6
I mulled the map's author for 4-5 years now. Best I could fathom is a stretch to Ruffner, link based upon his style of pen and ink - link. It's a bit of a stretch and so is interpretting the initials at bottom left on the Custer battlefield map. Pending todo. Interesting guy was Ruffner - all engineers are. Anyways.... there is something, since he is indexed to Bates, 2nd Cavalry and West Point and NY National Guard. YALE - so, we'll see......... if I ever make it HERE. Yawn.......... sssh.... STFU!Visit here, or a dusty hill?
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logan
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Post by logan on May 19, 2023 18:49:48 GMT -6
Engineers interest me too...even in the U.K. - Durnford at Isandhlwana, Chard at Rorke’s Drift and I guess Gordon at Khartoum.
It seems the infantry, artillery and cavalry were considered professionals, but the engineers (just) auxiliary forces - map making, repairing roads, building bridges and forts, not ‘proper soldiers’, was that the same case in the US ?
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Post by noggy on May 20, 2023 2:10:10 GMT -6
It seems the infantry, artillery and cavalry were considered professionals, but the engineers (just) auxiliary forces - map making, repairing roads, building bridges and forts, not ‘proper soldiers’, was that the same case in the US ? The US Army's engineers became a "real" corp sometime in the early 1800 after it was previously combined with artillery in some way (the details escape me, this is just what I remember from talking to a Army engineer with a passion for history, I'm sure Wiki can fill out the blanks). It was (is still) based at West point, so they were very much "real soldiers", but I guess for many especially outside the Army, the idea of building forts and stuff was not what they thought of as soldiering. The nature of their work, especially in the Frontier region, would also maybe ...not sure about the right word here, but "slide into" things also related to civilian life; roads, damns, bridges etc. To this day I do believe the engineer corps is very involved in civilian tasks, not just military ones. Another thing which struck me now is that the engineer officers that I remember some info about were pretty well educated, many with backgrounds from law and other civilian works which only educated people would hold. Much of their work would demand knowledge within math, physics etc. It MAY be that this led to some thought they were nerds or something All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 20, 2023 9:33:40 GMT -6
The US Corps of Engineers played a significant (major) role with the river highways and building and maintaining Levees for flood plain defence (land reclamation) which continues today. Post 1876, one of Lt. Maguire's foci was engineering Wolf Rapids along Yellowstone to aid navigation. The Corps was reponsible for building coastal defences which protected river mouths of major ports, provision of telegraph services, surveying the frontier territory and mapping it, and refining astronomical data. Many of the old annual reports are held at Hathi Trust and online. A little quote from Maguire (1877): ' (p. 1339) - ...Colonel Miles, Fifth Infantry, with a command of about 2,400 men, will commence operations this year, but my experience last summer taught me that very little work could be done on a military expedition, and as the two new reservations, one at Tongue River, 20 miles square, and the other at the mouth of the Little Big Horn or Custer River, must be surveyed, I have concluded to start up the Yellowstone about May 1, for the purpose of laying out these reservations. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, EDW. ...The specific Report - twerked to hit........... references to ' Custer'. An inventory of reports available courtesy of Uni. of California which I assume is Berkeley. Link If you like US 19th Century Military Engineering then you will never again be bored. That said, it actually is tediously boring and insightful. Remarkable people. It's a mindset.
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Post by herosrest on May 20, 2023 9:57:33 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on May 20, 2023 10:04:26 GMT -6
Capt. Edward Maguire - He served as Assistant on the Geodetic Survey of the Northern Lakes; as Assistant on various river and harbor works; as Chief Engineer Officer of the Department of Dakota, during which tour of duty he performed valuable service in the field, as Engineer of the expedition under General Terry against the Soux Indians, anterior and subseqnent to the Custer Massacre; as Engineer in charge of various rivers and harbors and the construction of permanent fortifications; as Engineer of a Light House District; as Commander of a Company of the Engineer Battalion; as Instructor at the Engineer School of Application and as Secretary of the Fortification Board for over three years. He received his Captaincy June 14, 1881, and, at the time of his death, was second on the list of Captains in the Corps of Engineers.
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on May 22, 2023 14:04:38 GMT -6
The topic post Advance party and new markers from 2006. i'd feel a great deal more comfortable with his work if'n he had worn a tweed deerstalker hat. Tacky.
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on May 22, 2023 14:16:23 GMT -6
...and my ggggg-uncle thirty years earlier was a scalper of British soldiers during one of the foremost FUBAR periods of our country's brief (white) history en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Long
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Post by noggy on May 23, 2023 0:49:25 GMT -6
...and my ggggg-uncle thirty years earlier was a scalper of British soldiers during one of the foremost FUBAR periods of our country's brief (white) history en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_LongGood thing there are plenty of "G's" in front of "grandfather"! It reminds me of when Homer Simpson's old father was reminiscing about the time he shot down a German plane. When asked if this was during WW2, he answered "No, last Tuesday". The moral is: There's a time for everything, and we should avoid both scalping Brits and shooting down German planes. Especially now, when everyone are so sensitive! I apologize, I have not had my coffee yet. noggy
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logan
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Post by logan on May 23, 2023 4:28:15 GMT -6
Maiwand 1880 is the battle I would’ve used as a comparison to Isandhlwana, a similar defeat happening just a year after the latter, yet there are no numerous publications about the former to the same extent, so I ended up using Little Bighorn as a comparison instead, which in itself is pretty much over-studied, very difficult to select books from the hundreds maybe thousands that exist
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Post by noggy on May 23, 2023 5:05:37 GMT -6
Maiwand 1880 is the battle I would’ve used as a comparison to Isandhlwana, a similar defeat happening just a year after the latter, yet there are no numerous publications about the former to the same extent, so I ended up using Little Bighorn as a comparison instead, which in itself is pretty much over-studied, very difficult to select books from the hundreds maybe thousands that exist The british also had Intombe Drift, where if I recall correctly, the British forces ws attacked when they were fragmented. Camped in two groups on each side of a river, I believe? Custer-esquw! There is a battle often referred to as "The German Little Bighorn", it may be of interest to you and others here: www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/battle%20lugalu.htmThere are some similarities here, at least in the "setting"/build-up. Fun fact: Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, known for his role in especially the Warzaw Uprising, was the German commander's nephew, and it is said that the "shame of losing to a force of inferiors" was something which spurred Bach-Zelewski to go as far as he did in cruelty towards Slavic and other "inferior" people. Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 23, 2023 6:43:00 GMT -6
Maiwand 1880 is the battle I would’ve used as a comparison to Isandhlwana, a similar defeat happening just a year after the latter, yet there are no numerous publications about the former to the same extent, so I ended up using Little Bighorn as a comparison instead, which in itself is pretty much over-studied, very difficult to select books from the hundreds maybe thousands that exist The british also had Intombe Drift, where if I recall correctly, the British forces ws attacked when they were fragmented. Camped in two groups on each side of a river, I believe? Custer-esquw! There is a battle often referred to as "The German Little Bighorn", it may be of interest to you and others here: www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/battle%20lugalu.htmThere are some similarities here, at least in the "setting"/build-up. Fun fact: Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, known for his role in especially the Warzaw Uprising, was the German commander's nephew, and it is said that the "shame of losing to a force of inferiors" was something which spurred Bach-Zelewski to go as far as he did in cruelty towards Slavic and other "inferior" people. Noggy We do have a big lion, to remind us. Damn Russians
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Post by herosrest on May 23, 2023 6:49:54 GMT -6
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