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Post by pjsolla on Apr 17, 2006 22:12:29 GMT -6
Nothing earthshattering but several piceces I have read state that before Custer went int MTC, he sent out an advance party of 1 sergeant and 5 enlisted men. They rode well to the east of Luce and Nye/Cartwright Ridge and appears, joined the right wing on Calhoun Hill.
Another interesting bit of info is that Michael Moore, around 1985 or so, found indirect evidence for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site, but were allegedly removed before construction of that facility in the 1950's. Anybody know if this was verified? This supposedly was found in the Custer Battlefield National Monument Archives.
Six markers would add more substance to the stories of E company's skirmish here and losing some of their horses to the suicide boys at that site before rejoining the left wing in the basin.
PJS
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 18, 2006 0:33:12 GMT -6
Another interesting bit of info is that Michael Moore, around 1985 or so, found indirect evidence for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site, but were allegedly removed before construction of that facility in the 1950's. Anybody know if this was verified? This supposedly was found in the Custer Battlefield National Monument Archives. PJS That’s quickly becoming a new myth of the LBH and has been discussed somewhere else deep within the bowels of this board. If I’m not mistaken, and it’s too late to go dig out Fox’s book, Fox alludes to this in a footnote in his book. I’m assuming that’s where you gleamed this new myth? I posted the footnote in the earlier thread where this subject was discussed. I knew Moore very well back in the 80s and he never showed me any indirect evidence that markers were in that area. Indirect is a key word and if my memory serves me it’s the same word Fox used in his footnote. Most importantly, there are no known photos to support markers there. Matter-of-fact, all known photos show no markers in that area. If new photos turn up showing markers there, it will not prove E company was there or that they fell by the hands of the suicide boys. At best, it would be a statement that six men fell near there. I’m currently editing Edward Luce home movies of the battlefield from the 40s and 50s for a Friends of the Little Bighorn Battlefield fundraiser. There is plenty of film, shot at different times, of the area where the visitor center would eventually be built – no markers. Plus, the NPS cannot just remove markers – SHPO would lynch them. Neil Mangum tried his best to remove some of the extra markers along Deep Ravine Trail during the mid 80s but they refused his request. SHPO has made it known that they consider the marble markers historical and will not allow their removal. They will allow markers to be moved to a different location if evidence supports the need, like the Keogh marker in the 80s.
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Post by bubbabod on Apr 18, 2006 0:40:11 GMT -6
bhist, speaking of the difficulty of removing markers, while a group I was with was at Jason Pitch's house a few years ago I noticed that he had half a dozen or more markers leaning up against his house on in his back yard. These were not the typical stone markers we see all over the battlefield, but wooden crosses. I've always wondered why he had them there. And, granted, these were on his own land, so I guess theoretically he could place them anywhere he wanted on his own land. Any thoughts?
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 18, 2006 0:48:23 GMT -6
Bubbabod: When Jason originally opened his Reno Battlefield Museum he placed white wood crosses, along the Reno retreat line, to represent the men of Reno’s battalion who fell in the battle.
You’re right, the museum was on private land and, frankly, the markers had not established any kind of historical importance. Each marker had a name of a fallen soldier. Those were probably the same markers you saw standing against his house.
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Post by pjsolla on Apr 18, 2006 2:02:53 GMT -6
Yes, that's correct, it was Fox's book. And he says in it that it was indirect evidence and not verified. That's why I wrote it exactly as it appeared and asked the question here, wishing to ascertain. It's apparent it is not. Thank you.
Concerning the alleged 6 markers (it is apparent that they were not there) being E company. From all my research, I have not seen anything that shows me anyone else fought near there. Except ofcourse, if someone has something that shows troopers from LSH got that far north/northwest.
PJS
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 18, 2006 10:32:06 GMT -6
Mike Donahue found some old pictures of what appear to be marble markers going down the hill to the west side of the entrance road to the battlefield. One looks like it is almost across the street from Putt Thompson's Trading Post. He said that he found one old timer who remembers them being there but doesn't remember when they were removed or by whom.
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Post by pjsolla on Apr 18, 2006 11:32:43 GMT -6
Gumby: Thanks.
Then does this sorta negate bhist's post or maybe the markers we are discussing were not in the same area as the ones Donuhue has come upon?
I know that Donuhue has come up with material concerning markers and fighting in and around the old visitors center, though I cannot recall exactly what he mentioned.
If anyone has further info, please post. Yes, I am sure there will be a clash of info on here, but that's why were here. To discuss. Though I know they don't want this thread used for arguments.
PJS
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 18, 2006 11:41:04 GMT -6
Two different set of circumstances. It was one marker that Grumby speaks of regarding Donahue, not six markers. It was actually located near what we call Crazy Horse Ravine, which cuts across (or under depending on how you want to look at it) the battlefield road as it approaches the entrance to the monument. Nowhere near the visitor center.
Since it sat outside the NPS boundary the chances are good it was stolen at some point a long time ago or some rancher tore it down like what happened a lot in the valley. It could support Custer’s move north, but have nothing to do with E company going into the basin.
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 18, 2006 14:00:29 GMT -6
I think there were two. One at the opening to the battlefield entrance road, across from the Trading Post and the other higher up the hill within a few hundred yards from the entrance gate. Not positive about the second one though. Haven't seen anything around the Visitors' Center but some fighting almost certainly would have taken place betwwen there and the Cemetary I would think.
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 18, 2006 14:20:07 GMT -6
Donahue also had a map showing six stakes, representing dead soldiers, near a spot that sits across the street from the Stone House and just outside the boundary fence. Everyone was excited about that find.
But, last summer Donahue shared with me that he was able to determine that the map was a fraud. I have to hand it to Donahue – he could’ve ignored that information and moved forward with what many considered a big find, but he didn’t. He’s representative of a great historian.
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Post by pjsolla on Apr 18, 2006 19:17:42 GMT -6
Gumby & bhist:
I can't say that this is a "strong" point for me, discussing these "alleged" markers around or near the visitors center. But, it's why I ask for opinions and post my questions.
Again, it's a shame the written and oral record is so replete with contradictions. But, it is what it is, and I shall continue to wade thru the material as it comes forward and sift thru the written record.
PJS
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Post by pjsolla on Apr 19, 2006 8:17:59 GMT -6
bhist:
I was still curious after receiving your reply on the six markers, so I literally emailed Dr. Fox and asked him if he ever had any further confirmation of those six markers. His reply is below.
BEGIN FOX'S TEXT:You refer to footnote 36, p. 353. I subsequently found (after the book was published) what Mike Moore had seen in the battlefield correspondence files.
The item is an interview by Neil Mangum and Danny Martinez with Mike Reynolds. The handwritten title is "Location of certain things reported by Mike Reynolds, June 27, 1983". The interview notes are in the margin of a Crow Agency, MT USGS 7.5' quad map. There are seven entries in the margin (the first five are in Mangum's handwriting; the other two by Martinez??). Each entry has a number, and each number is keyed on the map. Entry #3 reads, "6 markers moved to facilitate the vistor[sic] center in 1940s." The keyed number 3 is next to the M in `Museum' on the map, which of course is where the visitor center is located.
Mike Reynolds was Crow, and an old man when Mangum interviewed him (in his 80s if I recall, but I am not certain). Apparently they walked around the battlefield during this interview, with Reynolds pointing out this and that, and Mangum taking notes. Mr. Reynolds had died before I found this file, so I never had a chance to talk with him. How reliable this particular information (the alleged six markers) is remains in question. I have yet to see an independent confirmation such as old photos of the area with markers. Also, to my knowledge visitor center construction did not begin until ca. 1953, although I suppose the markers, if they ever existed, could have been removed, per Reynolds, in the 1940s --- maybe in prolonged anticipation of the project. Or, perhaps some visitor center proponent saw them (if they were ever there) as a potential roadblock to the project, and so had them removed.
So, the documentation for the footnote in my book certainly does exist. Independent confirmation, to my knowledge, is so far lacking. END FOX'S TEXT
Just wanted to let you know what Dr. Fox had to say regarding the six markers.
PJS
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 19, 2006 11:27:16 GMT -6
That’s good info PJ. I’ll be talking with Neil either today or later in the week and I’ll ask him what he can remember from this. To be honest, and I’ll guess Neil will agree with me that this idea is due to faulty memory on the part of Reynolds. I doubt very highly that markers would’ve been moved that far in advance of the construction of the VC.
All the Luce home movies I see from the 40s don’t reveal any markers there. I’ll let you know what Neil tells me.
P.S. – Maybe they moved the six markers onto LSH? Seriously, I would think there would be documentation as to what was done with the markers if they, indeed, existed and were moved. Remember, Luce was the King of the battlefield then and a member of the 7th Cavalry. I believe he would have treated any movement of markers with the highest of respect.
I just thought of something. I’ll send an email to Utley and ask him if he remembers any markers in that area or movement for the construction of the VC. He was there before construction of the VC.
I also sent an email to Brust and Barnard asking them if they've come across any photos to verify this one way or the other.
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Apr 19, 2006 14:13:57 GMT -6
Utley informed me, "I have no recollection of any markers on or near the VC site. Don't think there were."
That's from someone who spent five summers there. I believe Utley would remember if markers were moved for construction of the visitor center -- he's one reliable source.
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Post by pjsolla on Apr 19, 2006 16:44:22 GMT -6
bhist: Thanks for the replys.
There are many areas of the battle and battlefield that I come up short in. However, if I have info, I either check with the source or pass it on.
I asked Fox because he was the one who wrote it. I think you see that he states that there is existing documentation but independent confirmation is lacking.
But, I see that you also try to leave no stone unturned when trying to ascertain fact from fiction.
I will be anxious to hear what Neil Mangum has to say to you.
And Utley? The "Old Bison" is still very sharp and his memory is fine. I respect what he has to say.
Again, I am anxious to hear what Neil remembers of his interview of Reynolds and his (Neil's) disposition.
PJS
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