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Post by herosrest on May 15, 2023 18:11:38 GMT -6
Ian,
In regards fred and his deduction regarding 28 and 34 men of E Company and Deep Ravine, it was a flight of fantasy in regards his evidence.
Seven (7) E Troop men were identified. I believe I posted this with the source - D.D. Scott.
The six markers at or near the Stone House is complete rubbish, and a topic which was bred and developed here over years. There were not ever six battle related markers and today there are nearly 4,950.
That was the kind of stuff fred did with his work. The six markers is rubbish. Seven E troop men identified does not mean all 22, 28, or whatever number supposed to in the ravine - were E Troop men. Positive ID is 21 adrift.
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Post by herosrest on May 15, 2023 18:30:13 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2023 0:47:31 GMT -6
Hi HR, I am not going to defend or criticise Fred's work, he is not here to defend his comments nor am I in a position to say that he is wrong. You are fully in your right to comment as you wish, that is what these boards are all about. I posted the Fred comments as an aid to another poster, so people can debate as they wish over them. But not I, so enjoy yourself lad.
Ian
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Post by shan on May 16, 2023 8:08:48 GMT -6
Herosrest
What I'm wondering is what was the orginal source that spoke of six markers being placed near the stone house, and then, whoever they were, were they sufficently believable for this to become a legitmate part of the story of the battle?
Other that reading most of Freds posts when he was a member of both boards, I have no idea why he felt the story was true enough to include it in his version, but then by the same token, having read a good many of your own, I wonder why your so adament that the story is a load of balony.
Shan
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Post by herosrest on May 16, 2023 10:33:43 GMT -6
The topic was discussed on the board over years and had absolutely no substance. The topic is here lbha.proboards.com/thread/2311/advance-party-new-markersIn among the starting interest with the topic, but in covert fashion, is an account about scouts which is attributed to Peter Thompson. The thing meanders through an elderley Crow, yes maybe six or maybe one marker, maybe none I don't recall per the supposed informeant nearly 80 or 90 years ago. There were six wooden makers laying about at the other end of the valley on one of the farms. There were hundreds and then thousands of markers at the Stone House as it has filled with burials since the cemetery opened. None are directly associated with June 1876 and 7th Cavalry. Participants of the battle were buried there if they wished, when they passed away. Curley is there. WMRH. Maj. Reno is there although had he had a say, then I suspect he would lay at Arlington or Harrisburg, if that was acceptable. The markers were plotted in 1891, by R.B. Marshall. Despite supposed problems with it, there is nothing that far west of the battleground. No six markers. The Stone House construction was undertaken by Grover from 1893 and of the entire area of land, dedicated to the fallen he chose the spot where six markers stood.... Of course he did not. He was there to protect and maintain them. These six markers are the tip of an iceberg of speculations, rumours and wishful thinking. Another which is ongoing is the second Mark Kellogg marker supposed to be in some photograph from the 1950's which has become central to Mike Donahue proving Custer went to Ford D or tried to. There were two Kellogg markers. One was damaged and it was replaced. No one knows the fate of the old damaged stone. Did you know that the land down at Ford D belonged to the local policeman? That was Custer scout Curley and throughout his life - not a word about Custer at those fords on his land. This is an interesting battle topic - am I dreaming it up or is Donahue? Lt. Mathey buried Kellogg and no-one else knows where. The marker for him is on Battle Ridge and hearesr to the monument on the east flank. There were no six markers. Kellogg's marker was and is on Battle Ridge and was payed for by the newspaper. They published articles with photos of it. It is still there today an tens of thousands view it week in, week out, today and ever since 1896.
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Post by herosrest on May 16, 2023 12:34:14 GMT -6
There are layers of morality and humanity wrapped around this battle which has become a festival of information, like no other. A very long time ago in my life, I would now and then take interest in reading at our (then) brand spanking new and remarkably modern library courtesy of the Duke of Westminster. I fould it a deligtful escape now and again. I had a passing interest in LBH and sat down with 'Little Bighorn Remembered' by Viola. It stayed with me in detail although not front of mind later in life when my interest blossomed through time on my hands and interest in search, which has changed libraries. My view of the battle was the sweeping left hook by Crazy Horse and the Cheyennes because that seemed acceptable. Decades on, that just isn't any longer so. I'll not do a dirge of qualification but rather step back into the book mentioned. The author was the gent who received Edward S. Curtis's papers when ESC's son got around to parking them with the Smithsonian. They arrived, he knew what he had, and assessed the work. He passed this on in the book and after reading it, I found myself in constant quandry with continually emerging versions of what happened and how it happened. Here's why - Curtis gained the idea that Custer sat west of Weir Peak and watched Reno battling for an hour before retreating; and then led the five companies to doom. That was the scenario Curtis discovered, accepted and dealt with. Viola blew this out of the water in his account of the papers but it is ignored. Viola was a simple historian first. He became good friends with Joe Medicine Crow knowing all the time that his friends interest was his family (as with everyone) which included White Man Runs Him; and his tribe. If you read John S. Grey and the Bouyer book, I enjoyed my first read and then it sunk in, what he had done which was accept the Curtis model of Custer's advance and built his battle forward and back from that place and point in time. It continues in various ways in disregard of Viola. Hutchins looked into the papers also and that work simply leaves me at a loss since he was at SI also, and produced some respected work on the battle. Here is the bit of Viola's work, which I stand by - ' Upon reaching the vicinity of Weir Point, White Man Runs Him told Curtis, the three scouts encountered a portion of Major Reno’s command. Earlier, after his pell-mell retreat from the river bottom, Major Reno had pulled up atop the high bluffs close to the point from which Custer had first looked into the valley. There he was joined by Captain Benteen with his three companies and, eventually, the pack train. Thereafter, hearing firing from the direction in which it was supposed that Custer had gone, most of Reno’s command had made a disorganized advance to Weir Point in an effort to open contact with him. It was these troops whom, according to White Man Runs Him, the Crow scouts now met.It depends how into the nitty gritty of things Reno Hill that you are but Viola's view of it means Custer was not hanging about watching Reno in the valley and that the three Crow scouts did NOT meet Benteen climbing out of Reno Creek, but quite a bit later. That actually transforms understanding of Custer, Keogh and Yates to the north. Viola or Hutchins? What a lovely dilemma..........
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2023 13:19:17 GMT -6
I really don't know what the problem is with the six markers, didnt they place the wooden stakes at points where bodies were found? The Indians state claim that they killed the horse holders on the hill, so why could these markers be for six horse holders who died doing their duty on cemetery hill after the charge by the suicide boys.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on May 16, 2023 16:39:02 GMT -6
The location for the supposed markers is on the National cemetery at the Superintendent's home - the Old Stone house. That is on the trail up to the Superintendent's house, cemetery and monument which stands on the battlefield cemetery from which remains were gathered and removed to the monument in 1880.
There is no indication of six markers on that terrain at the Stonehouseby the report of 25th Infantry who placed themarkers, or the surveyor sent in a few months later to map it, so that it was a matter of record the job was done properly - which is that they did the best they could given the Order for the mission, issued by Brisbin.
In 1890, there was no Reno Benteen Defence Site. The land was alloted to the Crow Tribe. 25th Infantry were ordered to place markers on the Custer Battlefield - this was a square mile centred on where Custer Fell, as mapped by Wilson in August, 1879.
Owen J. Sweet did the besthe could with the markers given his orders and the faceted situation he faced with everything of the land but that mile square, belonging to the Crow Tribe, at that time.
If you really want to get into it, Michael Moore is the one to talk to.
Regards.
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Post by herosrest on May 16, 2023 16:54:58 GMT -6
Following up my post on Viola's book information on the Crow Scout's matters, there is a final aspect of what happened which is relevant and little considered.
Custer, Keogh and Yates, progressed rapidly into and over MTC as Reno and French opened their fight. French was battalion commander. That fight lasted 20 minutes max and they were out of there. On Custer's front he hadhis buglers blowing calls. Tthis is a matter I'vediscussed a few times to little note but it happened in beingcommented by a few participants.
So, what was going on? Playing Garryowen? I doubt it.
One person with Reno mentioned hearing this, he didn't understand the calls. That was Gerard in the timber.
Any way, that's enough for now. I understand that an offensive is about to break to take Moscow. About 450 miles at 15mph. Taken by Sunday.
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Post by herosrest on May 16, 2023 17:05:43 GMT -6
Wilson's report on his mission is an interesting read. I had expected it to precisely locate where Custer fell (in 1879). Something is a bit off..... So much for maps, as fred used to say.
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Post by noggy on May 18, 2023 2:48:26 GMT -6
HR:
Ever considered writing your own book? it would be an interesting read.
All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 18, 2023 3:48:00 GMT -6
It's interesting thought but then........... I would have nailed my jelly to the wall and couldn't do as I do, which as far as i'm concerned is entirely brilliant Depending, of course, upon the size of your puddle. I found lots of stuff over many years and some.. quite a bit of some was lost when some hard drives trashed in days before the cloud could do what it does today. I'm rebuilding some of the drive data very slowly and turned up a gem or two so far. The Benteen Goldin letters are interesting stuff for insight with Benteen and although broad opinion is that only some of Benteen's leeters remain, that ain't so. Stuff by Goldin was dug up as well by that stalwart John M. Carroll. So, anyway, Goldin wrote up the battle, the entire expedition from his journey to FAL onwards. I'm reasonably sure that despite having an incredible imagination besides an unconsidered lack of measure with veracity, that he was rather badly treated in terms of the controversial matters. For example, on the night march he says he was sent back with a message to the packtrain. If I remember correctly, he went with DeRudio but don't hold me to that although i'm pretty sure. It is perfectly believeable that there was communication between Custer and, it seems per Benteen, Keogh - in charge of rearguard and packs. No real problem with this for any student but, mention him carrying a note to Reno in the valley next day a nd he he's the dirtiest low-down cretin that ever drew breaths.... and outside the battle bubble this is simply hilarious. He backed out of the army after Nez Perce by being underage and in honesty, who in right mind wouldn't, if they could. So, Goldin wrote up the battle during the time he and Benteen were corresponding and Benteen had some thoughts on it in writings. The article was published in Army Magazine, which had a short life and the editions have ceased to exist pretty much except for...... the one i'm preparing to dump on you guys. Goldin was pretyy much accepted and believed until W.A. Graham got involved in matters along with Godfrey - each led=ading experts in their time and a succesion in time. Godfrey passed away as Graham's interest came to fruition and thank God it did since his output was remarkable and his views and attitude mellowed through time. Unfortunately,the last thing anyone should want trolling through historical records is a military-legal advocate. It's a problematic approach and his unfortunate legacy is immense although of course there is the oath underpinning him. His oath to fellow officers but that applies broadly and not uniquely. Enjoy (some wry irony) linkRegards Added - Fabulous Buckram-Bound set of Goldin's "On the Little Bighorn with Gen. Custer" with Benteen Notations....
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Post by herosrest on May 18, 2023 4:27:14 GMT -6
The topic post Advance party and new markers from 2006. Nothing earthshattering but several piceces I have read state that before Custer went int MTC, he sent out an advance party of 1 sergeant and 5 enlisted men. They rode well to the east of Luce and Nye/Cartwright Ridge and appears, joined the right wing on Calhoun Hill. Another interesting bit of info is that Michael Moore, around 1985 or so, found indirect evidence for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site, but were allegedly removed before construction of that facility in the 1950's. Anybody know if this was verified? This supposedly was found in the Custer Battlefield National Monument Archives. Six markers would add more substance to the stories of E company's skirmish here and losing some of their horses to the suicide boys at that site before rejoining the left wing in the basin. PJS Off things wandered and ten years on, Urwin on Wagner, 'Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn. There were no markers placed at the Stone House which related to the fighting in 1876. Only seven of Company E's dead were identified on the battleground. Scott and Fox did some work with remains found on and in the ground from the 1980's onward. They did not identify further men of Company E. Fred did what he did........ i'd feel a great deal more comfortable with his work if'n he had worn a tweed deerstalker hat.
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Post by Bruce Robert on May 19, 2023 14:16:33 GMT -6
Jeez,I hope when I die I'm not remembered in this way. For feck's sake, who here can claim there's no one who thinks he's an ass. I have my enemies, and as much as I don't want to admit, some of them have good cause to think me - to use that lovely English expression - a right F'ing C--t." In any case, I am sorry to hear that Fred has died. Whatever his flaws and foibles, he is now beyond his cares and our reach.
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logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by logan on May 19, 2023 15:16:43 GMT -6
I’ve pretty much got on the wrong side of everyone in my main subject, but it has always been because of my years of defending the officer I study whom nobody else will, the fact of the matter is, I’m absolutely delighted by this, as every time my name crops/cropped up, people remembered the officer and vice-versa, so to be connected in this way to history constantly, perhaps forever...even after my own demise....I couldn’t ask for a better memory of my own contribution to righting a historical wrong, hopefully inspiring others to continue in my stead.
Better to be remembered for something than never to be remembered at all.
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