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Post by tubman13 on Jul 21, 2017 14:10:07 GMT -6
Jody, I like, very much the way you answered AZ and don't mind Wild, I think he thinks he has forgotten more about this battle than the rest of us will ever know. I love you Richard!
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Post by noggy on Jul 21, 2017 15:25:58 GMT -6
Shan, Custer was not aware of the suicide boys, yes they were mostly Cheyenne, the Cheyenne Circle extended below/beyond MTF/Ford B. The suicide boys were late to the party, mostly attacked fixed positions. Didn`t JSIT name just four Cheyenne and 20 Sioux as the Suicide Boys?
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 21, 2017 16:26:59 GMT -6
Shan, Custer was not aware of the suicide boys, yes they were mostly Cheyenne, the Cheyenne Circle extended below/beyond MTF/Ford B. The suicide boys were late to the party, mostly attacked fixed positions. Didn`t JSIT name just four Cheyenne and 20 Sioux as the Suicide Boys? You are correct, Noggy. The ritual which the Northern Cheyenne believed originated with them, it was called "Dying Dancing." Listed Cheyenne were Little Whirlwind, Cut Belly, Closed Hand, and Noisy Walking. Have we found the names of the Sioux?
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Post by wild on Jul 21, 2017 16:28:09 GMT -6
Noggy Mitch Bouyer couldn't tell him about a ford?
I suppose he could tell him it was near a loop just beyond a hill called LSH Richard
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Post by noggy on Jul 21, 2017 16:46:24 GMT -6
Didn`t JSIT name just four Cheyenne and 20 Sioux as the Suicide Boys? You are correct, Noggy. The ritual which the Northern Cheyenne believed originated with them, it was called "Dying Dancing." Listed Cheyenne were Little Whirlwind, Cut Belly, Closed Hand, and Noisy Walking. Have we found the names of the Sioux? "Phew" That`s a good question. I can`t say I remember any named Sioux belonging to the Suicide Boys. Are some maybe mentioned in Frederick Wagner`s "Participants"? Btw: Did JSIT refer to just the Cheyennes or all of the Suicide Boys when he said they all died? If the latter, it would mean the were a very large portion of the Indians KIAs compared to some of the more modest estimates of Indian casualties who are in the 30s (KIA).
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 21, 2017 16:56:01 GMT -6
Very true, percentage wise. By the way I have enjoyed your posts.
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Post by noggy on Jul 21, 2017 17:07:57 GMT -6
Very true, percentage wise. By the way I have enjoyed your posts. I guess that since we do know the names of several Sioux who were killed, and can deduct a couple, many of them would be among the Suicide Boys? And thank you very much for your nice comment. In this company the amount of knowledge makes posting almost scary!
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Post by montrose on Jul 21, 2017 18:20:08 GMT -6
Noggy,
Your comments show a patient, persistent member. I am glad you are here. Keep posting.
The suicide boys event had a minor Indian element hit the E Company horse line. The horses were lost. IT indicates the officers were at the end of their decision tree. They were out of their element and making bad decision after bad decision. In this case they were applying linear tactics to a non linear battle.
What I mean: They were trying to identify an Indian main effort, to face a skirmish line in that direction. Conventional tactics against a non conventional threat.
At no point did any element on Battle Ridge form a 360 defense. That was done by Reno and Benteen, the villains for the romanticists.
Jody, I am considering responding, may hurt your feelings. Rather see more folks post, than less, s I will wait. My main issue is that the five companies on Battle Ridge were operating in unity. They were not. The fight in this area was lost by the officers, not the enlisted men.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by wild on Jul 22, 2017 3:49:36 GMT -6
Colonel
Jody, I am considering responding, may hurt your feelings. Rather see more folks post, than less, s I will wait. My main issue is that the five companies on Battle Ridge were operating in unity. They were not. The fight in this area was lost by the officers, not the enlisted men. Not wishing to teach Granny to suck eggs ...a general observation. Cavalry are not capable of fire and movement while in contact with the enemy because to do so requires changes of formation/configuration ....lethal when under attack. The skirmish line is principally a defensive formation , it has no offensive capability but is of some use in breaking contact. Formations of the time could not act in concert or indulge in articulated actions....no command and control beyond committment.
To take an outnumbered force of such limited cohesion and advance for 4 miles with an open flank over broken terrain along the entire front of an enemy two minutes away will only end in tears. And there is only one man responsible for that. Cheers
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Post by noggy on Jul 22, 2017 4:13:08 GMT -6
Conventional tactics against a non conventional threat. Recipe for defeat. The part I quoted would be a good name of a chapter in any book about the battle, come to think f it.
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Post by wild on Jul 22, 2017 6:47:07 GMT -6
Cavalry are non conventional. The problem with this board is that it does not recognise this and continually trys to find a solution by imposing conventional methods on the last remnants of equitatus. Ceasar's cavalry were recruited from the barbaric tribes and always regarded as auxilaries. You cannot fight a conventional action with a force whose basic role is support.
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Post by fred on Jul 22, 2017 8:42:44 GMT -6
I can`t say I remember any named Sioux belonging to the Suicide Boys. Are some maybe mentioned in Frederick Wagner`s "Participants"? No. There are only six known by name, all Cheyenne. There are indications, however, there were at least 20 or more, both Cheyenne and Lakota, mainly Oglala. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 25, 2017 12:31:10 GMT -6
The only names I could find regarding the Suicide Boys are:
Closed Hand Limber Hand and/or Bones Noisy walking Cut Belly
One would have to go to the Cheyenne Reservation and ask relatives of the participants of the battle . . . but I doubt you would get much info out of them. They rarely speak to Whites regarding what took place at the LBH. Even decades after the battle many descendants of the people in the village are reluctant to talk in fear of retribution and/or distortion by whites.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 26, 2017 7:32:57 GMT -6
The only names I could find regarding the Suicide Boys are: Closed Hand Limber Hand and/or Bones Noisy walking Cut Belly One would have to go to the Cheyenne Reservation and ask relatives of the participants of the battle . . . but I doubt you would get much info out of them. They rarely speak to Whites regarding what took place at the LBH. Even decades after the battle many descendants of the people in the village are reluctant to talk in fear of retribution and/or distortion by whites. Next Year AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 27, 2017 10:48:02 GMT -6
AZ:
Just be aware, the Cheyenne, especially Northern Cheyenne went through some of the most egregious conditions because they were far more fanatical and determined to resist the White Man. What they went through after the LBH is not only heart-breaking but inspiring as they continued to avoid giving up their way of life. Their numbers were greatly reduced due to not only warfare, but disease, extreme conditions in their longing to stay away from Whites and then once on the Res their desire to remain true to their Culture.
I would think it would be virtually impossible to get any info from them, not because they won't like you, but because they have been hounded for decades by Whites wanting to know their history, tales of the LBH and afterward and just not thinking of them in today's terms but from times long past. They and many other Native Americans are not history pieces, but living human beings with all the emotions, feelings, and desires of anyone else.
This is not a dig at you or anyone else, but just think what Native Americans have been through and continue to go through just to live day-to-day!
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