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Post by Colt45 on Sept 4, 2017 20:35:00 GMT -6
Interesting account, reading kind of like a dime novel from the period. He mentioned the camp packing up and moving out at first light on the 26th, but this is at odds with what the survivors on Reno hill said about the camp leaving late in the day on the 26th. He also mentions the Indians told of the cavalry having sabres and using them during the fight, but we know the 7th did not take sabres with them.
He claims the last man to die was Keogh, but doesn't cite who told him that. It is not likely Keogh was the man described as he had a bullet through the knee which also lodged into his horse, and would have prevented him from making the hand-to-hand sabre fight described in as effective a fashion as described.
So, is Major Logan's account accurate, or a much flowered up creation of the imagination?
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Post by mac on Sept 4, 2017 23:45:40 GMT -6
1902 Terrain view.FreemanMarquis T.B. Marquis with his Cheyenne informants at the 50th Anniversary at which, 7th Cavalry rode from the western fords via the Cemetery Ridge onto Battle Ridge in a RE-ENACTMENT of the battle. Anyone want some lessons in Cheyenne language? 'cos not one of those battle participants knew a thing about cavalry or fighting at the western fords. We know this from Marquis's book about the battle. So, who was telling stuff about it to John Stands in Timber? The truth of events was shielded from Custer's wife and since then has really suited no-one involved with the battle's difficulties. There was a survivor and the story has been told and left to mould. Here ya go mac, Published 1936 the record of the survivor who really was there. Two Feathers with his Springfield carbine. Stump Horn Likewise. Stump Horn signing to Willis Rowland. Bit special, this one - John, Josie and Burton Stands in Timber at the battle's 50th Anniversary. Photographer Marquis, Thomas Bailey. Now then John, do tell me all about the battle. Stumpy and his wife, who was wounded in the chest during the battle. There is a photo of him in the Wooden Leg book at the ford. Erm.......... Indians who fought Custer. Little known accounts of the fighting including witness of Black Moons killing. Little Wolf and Big Beaver. One of the guys who fought, fighting at the ford, linkHere's Curley with his wife and stood outside his tipi on his land which was in the valley, immediately opposite the river mouth of Deep Ravine. Where on the battle field is the terrain view photo from? By that I mean where geographically is the photographer standing? Cheers
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Post by herosrest on Sept 5, 2017 5:53:07 GMT -6
Hi. Can't give you GPS but you are looking up at the Stone House from the terrain below it to the west. Towards the D fords terrain areas where a very few relics have been found. The entrance from 212 would be off to the left - southwest northnorthwest (typo corrected) as viewing. Distance is impossible to guage in this terrain. You are looking east and up the climbing terrain which approaches the National Cemetery from the 212 road entrance direction but some distance south by west towards the river. It is my opinion that cavalry bullets found in this and adjacent areas were overs aimed at targets much nearer LSH. The monument is left forward (behind) the Stone House and NatCem. I wonder who the Indian that raised the flag every sun up was....? Curley?....... JSiT had his own agenda and getting amarker and respect for Lame White Man took him 40 years. Respect! Be well.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 5, 2017 5:53:11 GMT -6
Hi AZ Am I to take it that there is a map in circulation for which Dough Scott provided information and to which he has lent his name and you state that it is unfit for purpose? Best Richard Richard I think anyone can use someone's work and include it in their sources. What makes you think that Douglas Scott is responsible for everything on the Bonafede map. Bonafede does not state that and in fact lists several sources. I gave you the Scott publication which does have his name on it and you can compare what he presented in his publication as compared to what is on the Bonafede map. Again for your edification. Pitsch did not record the location of individual findings just a general area. Yet looking on the Bonafede map one might think that each mark represented an artifact. Douglass Scott discussed with Pitsch his findings and the general location where they artifacts were found. Even as great as Doug is he can not recreate the exact location each artifact was found. So someone has to make a representation of what they believe was the location but at best you can take the outside perimeter as defined by Pitsch and say with a high degree of certainty that somewhere within the boundary the artifacts were found. Douglass Scott states of the early findings that Weibert did a fair job of recording the locations but even then this was before GPS locations were recorded so exactly what information do you think exists? You do understand that the person collecting the data and having published is subject to other authors using that data and giving them credit. Henry Weibert is dead so his data is provided by whatever means he recorded it. Don Weibert published the book Custer, Cases & Cartridges. Henry put metal states in the ground for some of the various locations that he recovered artifacts but there is only one stake at each location even when there is numerous artifacts. Regards Steve
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Post by herosrest on Sept 5, 2017 9:12:44 GMT -6
Interesting account, reading kind of like a dime novel from the period. He mentioned the camp packing up and moving out at first light on the 26th, but this is at odds with what the survivors on Reno hill said about the camp leaving late in the day on the 26th. He also mentions the Indians told of the cavalry having sabres and using them during the fight, but we know the 7th did not take sabres with them. He claims the last man to die was Keogh, but doesn't cite who told him that. It is not likely Keogh was the man described as he had a bullet through the knee which also lodged into his horse, and would have prevented him from making the hand-to-hand sabre fight described in as effective a fashion as described. So, is Major Logan's account accurate, or a much flowered up creation of the imagination? note - see John Stands in Timber photograph posted previouslyLBH was a family outing for the Logans - father and son present. link to 'The Last Man'.There is OB discussion.
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Post by wild on Sept 6, 2017 8:58:04 GMT -6
Hi AZ Doug Scott is the foremost individual in the archeological investigation at the battlefield. His work was the source for Bonafedes artifact map. Doug himself spent several days putting this work together for Bonafede. Do you have more accurate information than Scott's?. The area in question is so large that if it is spurious then all Scott's work must be called into question.
Cheers Richard
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Post by noggy on Sept 7, 2017 2:27:20 GMT -6
He claims the last man to die was Keogh, but doesn't cite who told him that. It is not likely Keogh was the man described as he had a bullet through the knee which also lodged into his horse, and would have prevented him from making the hand-to-hand sabre fight described in as effective a fashion as described. I made this point on the other board, which I first signed up at by mistake, when Keogh was launched as the likely victim of Yellow Nose`s old saber. It was argued the wound could have been inflicted after death. Got the impression it was more about really wanting Keogh to be some sort of last stand guy. The person I discussed it with called himself Keogh so who knows...
As for the sabers: Count No Account had his, I believe, but I doubt that led do a broad belief that the soldiers in general carried them.
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2017 5:38:10 GMT -6
The Keogh sector had more troopers and Keogh himself seems to have been the centre of last resistance in this area. Most commentators have Keogh's troops dismounted with horse holders detailed and covered by Calhoun. The Custer sector suggestes no such organisation. A guess.....is that the last light went out among Keogh's men if only because there were more scalps to be taken
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 7, 2017 7:04:21 GMT -6
Hi AZ Doug Scott is the foremost individual in the archeological investigation at the battlefield. His work was the source for Bonafedes artifact map. Doug himself spent several days putting this work together for Bonafede. Do you have more accurate information than Scott's?. The area in question is so large that if it is spurious then all Scott's work must be called into question. Cheers Richard Please refrain from misrepresentation. Douglas Scott has data that was used by Bonafede. The sources of that data are numerous. If for example Douglas Scott digitized the work of Jason Pitsch it is still Jason Pitsch's work in regards to the findings both in description and location. So if some day one of the finders is accused of planting the cases it does not mean Doug Scott or Mike Bonafede are co-conspirators. Luce Ridge 1943 Edward S Luce made an examination and produced a Grid Map Garryowen Loop Jason Pitsch he made numerous findings. After talking with Jason Doug Scott did a paper in 1993. Doug Scott did not do the findings he wrote the paper using verbal descriptions and on the ground after the fact surveying to produce the paper. Reno-Benteen Don Rickey Jr. 1956 along with J. W. Vaughn surveyed Jun 28-Jul 3 and July 10. A total of 200 "cartridges and cases" and 12 bullets (fired into the area by Indians) also some human remains Robert Bray June 2 - July 1, 1958 Brays results were published and he made a survey map that included the locations staked by Rickey as the results of the Bray investigation. Acknowledgements We can all read what you wrote above as it found on the map. This is where Bonafede states that Douglas Scott provided him digital information. My reason to state you are misrepresenting is that you state it as Scott's work. It could be Rickey and Vaughn's work . If you are stating that Doug Scott made all the findings in his truly professional manner that I observed in person in Wyoming than you are misrepresenting the facts. All those findings such as Pitsch may be represented on the map but it does not mean that Douglas Scott found the artifact and professionally recorded the description and location of each artifact. That is the point. If you want maps used and/or produced by Douglas Scott then buy his books. They are well worth the investments. For example that long line you have made comments on can be found in Douglas Scott's book on page 42. It is a solid line. "J. W. Vaughn and Don Rickey's soldier and Indian position". So you may also want to read what Douglas Scott wrote. "He (Rickey) also noted that the find location were mapped and that a copy is attached. Unfortunately, such a map has not been located, and the carbon file copies of the report do not include the map. There is, however, a hand-annotated map copy of the 1954 aerial photograph (figure 9) of the Reno-Benteen are in the park files that does appear to generally denote the find areas mentioned by Rickey." So Douglas Scott's book includes the research he did both in the field and in park files by others, along with others helping out including personal communications. We are grateful to him for putting this all together in one place which is his book. If you want to solve the mystery that you see on the Bonafede map in the Reno Benteen area then buy UNCOVERING HISTORY-ARCHEOLIGICAL INVESTIGATIONS AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN by Douglas D. Scott and turn to page 42. If you have it turn to page 42. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2017 10:26:05 GMT -6
Hi AZ Or it could be Doug's work and even if it was not are you suggesting that Doug knowingly passed on dubious work for publication by serious scholars ? And to add insult to injury would he allow his name to be used as authentication ? Would a man of Dugg's reputation allow the proliferation of spurious work?
Now what you have to do is state why you think the location in question ( opposite the Reno defence site) is inaccurate in location , extent and number of aftifacts.
Best Richard
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Post by herosrest on Sept 7, 2017 15:43:28 GMT -6
He claims the last man to die was Keogh, but doesn't cite who told him that. It is not likely Keogh was the man described as he had a bullet through the knee which also lodged into his horse, and would have prevented him from making the hand-to-hand sabre fight described in as effective a fashion as described. I made this point on the other board, which I first signed up at by mistake, when Keogh was launched as the likely victim of Yellow Nose`s old saber. It was argued the wound could have been inflicted after death. Got the impression it was more about really wanting Keogh to be some sort of last stand guy. The person I discussed it with called himself Keogh so who knows...
As for the sabers: Count No Account had his, I believe, but I doubt that led do a broad belief that the soldiers in general carried them.
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Post by noggy on Sept 8, 2017 0:26:42 GMT -6
I made this point on the other board, which I first signed up at by mistake, when Keogh was launched as the likely victim of Yellow Nose`s old saber. It was argued the wound could have been inflicted after death. Got the impression it was more about really wanting Keogh to be some sort of last stand guy. The person I discussed it with called himself Keogh so who knows...
As for the sabers: Count No Account had his, I believe, but I doubt that led do a broad belief that the soldiers in general carried them.
Good thing he wasn`t there or else the Battle would have still been on. Lovely film, never could decide if I liked it og Life of Brian the most.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2017 6:35:06 GMT -6
Hi AZ Or it could be Doug's work and even if it was not are you suggesting that Doug knowingly passed on dubious work for publication by serious scholars ? And to add insult to injury would he allow his name to be used as authentication ? Would a man of Dugg's reputation allow the proliferation of spurious work? Now what you have to do is state why you think the location in question ( opposite the Reno defence site) is inaccurate in location , extent and number of aftifacts. Best Richard Richard You are using his name right now. Did you get permission to do so? Actually I have Doug's book and it is clear there is a only a line in the area that you refer to and not individual artifact locations. Rickey was showing a general location on an aerial map but the actual map of the individual artifact locations is missing. The book presents the various research and private sector artifact finds. There is no representation that Doug Scott was present and supervising these events. Obviously some were done by professionals and some were done by land owners. The book " began as an unpublished archeological assessment report for the National Park Service; it was a top priority as part of the Monument's cultural resource program, which encompasses everything from history to cultural landscapes to archeology. " The Friends of the Little Bighorn Battlefield provided money to fund the project which enabled Scott to immediately begin his work on the assessment. Bob Reece, then president of Friends, states that Doug does not receive any royalties from this publication. Buy the book and read the forward and it would help you see that is was originally to be a working document for the NPS. The Friends understood the importance and put up the money. Doug Scott did the work which was to gather all the known archeological work and put it together so the park could make management decisions. Bob Reece thought it something that the public would like to have and the forward will explain how the book came about. Regards Steve
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Post by mac on Nov 13, 2017 18:34:34 GMT -6
The conventional theory is that after Ford B Custer moved up to Calhoun Hill and left Company C and Company L in that location with Company L deployed to skirmish. The archaeology tells us that the skirmish line was originally much lower, in a less desirable position, and was subsequently moved (forced) back up the slope to the crest. This is totally opposed to the idea of a voluntary movement away from Ford B but completely likely for a forced halt in a movement south. Another reason to say that Custer did not pause at Ford B but took all 5 companies to Ford D. Cheers
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