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Post by noggy on Jul 7, 2017 3:49:04 GMT -6
Like any good boy I have tried to look through the board. But since I haven`t found an answer plus I`m away from home/my literature, I rather just ask. Directions to relevant thread(s) are appreciated, of course.
The bodies of some soldiers from the three companies deployed in the Keogh sector were found on or around LSH. Generally it is said that these men managed to escape north for a short while, before the warriors also wiped out Custer`s group. It is one of many good arguments for a South-North flow of battle (which I too believe is the way it happened ). My very small and most likely stupid question is whether or not it is guaranteed that they fought and or ran the distance from Keogh? Could they not have been picked out already at the time Custer split from Keogh in order to bolster Custer`s ranks before the trip to Ford D or thereabouts? Kind of like how a few soldiers were picked from the different companies and sent to reinforce the pack-train?
Somewhere in the back of my head I do believe I have read something about this, but as mentioned my humble library is far away at the time being.
Cheers
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Post by montrose on Jul 7, 2017 8:29:19 GMT -6
Some 20 men from C,I,L made it to LSH. The C company folks were mounted, I and L were a mix of mounted and dismounted.
Wagner's books are the best source for understanding what happened. He posts here every few months ask him.
As far as C/I/L folks on LSH due to a detail, that is a zero percent probability. The pack train detail was a daily event, going back weeks. Detailing random members of multiple companies in the middle of combat, it did not happen. I have been justifiably critical of LTC Custer's incompetence. But that does not apply in this area.
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Post by benteen on Jul 7, 2017 14:18:21 GMT -6
Colonel Montrose.
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Post by benteen on Jul 7, 2017 14:18:36 GMT -6
Colonel Montrose
On the other board there is a gentleman that uses Sgt Tyre as his sign on. I am curious, I believe he is or was an Officer.Dont know if Company of field grade. Would you do me a favor and look at his posts and tell me what you think.
Thank You Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Jul 7, 2017 16:55:49 GMT -6
My very small and most likely stupid question is whether or not it is guaranteed that they fought and or ran the distance from Keogh? It is very unlikely that men from c company fought their way out of encirclement in the Keogh sector to join Custer on LSH. I believe the command was hit suddenly while in line of march. The result was that some men remained mounted and rode to LSH while others remained with Keogh.
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Post by noggy on Jul 7, 2017 18:25:02 GMT -6
Some 20 men from C,I,L made it to LSH. The C company folks were mounted, I and L were a mix of mounted and dismounted. Wagner's books are the best source for understanding what happened. He posts here every few months ask him. As far as C/I/L folks on LSH due to a detail, that is a zero percent probability. The pack train detail was a daily event, going back weeks. Detailing random members of multiple companies in the middle of combat, it did not happen. I have been justifiably critical of LTC Custer's incompetence. But that does not apply in this area. I have two of Fred Wagner`s books, but as said I`m far away from my humble library. I agree that during the heat of combat cherrypicking (one word?) some individuals to join a "hike" would be very strange, if not borderline insane. But if in the middle of combat as you describe it, would not going North with two companies be even more crazy? I have sort of imagined the five companies being united at one point after the trip down towards the river, with a little period of calm, then Custer going to scout to the North with two companies and leaving Keogh with three companies to secure his back and possibly (wrong word?) wait for Benteen. In that scenario ordering a few men from each company to bolster a recon unit of sorts, if Custer believed there was not a direct threat at that time, isn`t anything more wrong than many other things happening that day? Some men on foot reaching LSH, some mounted already there? My English is terrible tonight, sorry, but some beers and good company does create written dyslexia. Or something. And again, very grateful for anyone bothering to read and comment.
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Post by noggy on Jul 7, 2017 18:29:10 GMT -6
I believe the command was hit suddenly while in line of march. The result was that some men remained mounted and rode to LSH while others remained with Keogh. The command as in all five companies?
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Post by wild on Jul 8, 2017 4:36:53 GMT -6
Noggy Hi The command as in all five companies? In a word yes. My view and very much in the minority. The command were in motion across the rear slope of Battle Ridge when hit by a significant force of Indians crossing Battle Ridge and taking the command in flank. Custer with lead companys makes a run for LSH while Keogh further back and now cut off from Custer orders a halt to fight on foot. There is no evidence of an organised defence either at LSH or in the Keogh sector indicating that all 5 companys were hit simultainiously . this scenario accounts for the confusion in both sectors,Keogh's awful position and the split in the command. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Jul 8, 2017 5:03:43 GMT -6
Further In actual fact Custher's LSH position was no better than Keogh's because being in clos contact the Indians negated any minor advantage Custer might have had. Our Friend Montrose [greatly respected in this parish] does Keogh an injustice always describing him as incompetent. Keogh was not in control of the column and was not assigned a role . He was simply the leader of the rear element awaiting orders.
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Post by montrose on Jul 8, 2017 5:52:48 GMT -6
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUUuc2cqclIThis is a video by Custer Apollo. This one and the two following show the terrain in question. Battle Ridge is huge. There is no way a 5 company column stretched from north end Battle Ridge to south end Battle Ridge. (LBH and Calhoun Hill). CPT Keough was the senior officer for the 3 companies on the south end of Battle Ridge. He placed himself and his company in a swale, where he was out of touch with what was happening on Calhoun Hill. He should have left the company under is LT and been where he could exercise command and control. This is just Command 101, something you do routinely. This isn't just officer business. We have many NCOs and enlisted folks here. Where does a squad leader position himself, and why? With the A team, B team, (sometimes a C team, more USMC than Army); and why? Leaders go where they can exercise the function of command. Wild, failures happen in battle. Thank God for the MILES system. This is a laser tag system NATO forces use in large training centers, like NTC, JRTC, Hohenfels. I have died many virtual deaths due to my own bad decisions. I learned a lot about what not to do. Keough, the real one, seems to be a likable person, especially compared to fellow officers in the 7th. He had years of experience, and would be a senior MAJ, junior LTC in any NATO force. But at LBH, he acted like a company commander whose sole focus was I CO. Our disagreement can focus on these 3 companies. One commanded by a CPT, one by a 1LT, one by a 2LT. Now, who do you think had the responsibility of command, whether he executed that function, or not? We don't have to agree, Wild. But it isn't personal. Glad to see you posting again. I miss you forcing me to relook my theories. Respectfully, William
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 8, 2017 5:59:16 GMT -6
Noggy Hi The command as in all five companies?In a word yes. My view and very much in the minority. The command were in motion across the rear slope of Battle Ridge when hit by a significant force of Indians crossing Battle Ridge and taking the command in flank. Custer with lead companys makes a run for LSH while Keogh further back and now cut off from Custer orders a halt to fight on foot. There is no evidence of an organised defence either at LSH or in the Keogh sector indicating that all 5 companys were hit simultainiously . this scenario accounts for the confusion in both sectors,Keogh's awful position and the split in the command. Cheers Richard Wild glad to see you posting and above ground, my friend. With regard to your yes, I am in your minority. We are just divergent as to how they got there, an you know.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 8, 2017 6:00:51 GMT -6
Will, did Keogh place himself there or was he placed there because he was wounded?
Regards, Tom
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Post by montrose on Jul 8, 2017 6:13:19 GMT -6
Tom.
Zero probability. Keogh died with his command element, with his LT properly placed with the 2nd platoon. If he had been wounded at Calhoun Hill, and fled to the swale, the officer commanding the company would have died in that area.
The Indians were conducting bravery runs between I and L. The chance of a wounded man transiting this area is a1% or less.
It doesn't make sense.
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Post by montrose on Jul 8, 2017 6:20:54 GMT -6
Noggy,
Do not worry about language. My former job trained in 5 languages, and the constant changing of what I had to speak was crippling. What I learned is that speaking the words is not as important as connotation and context. This means that slang is hard.
So do your best, and if in doubt we will help out. You have interesting points of view, hope to see you express your opinions.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 8, 2017 6:36:06 GMT -6
At the risk of throwing sand in the gears and I am not saying I buy it, A writer who works at the park told me about 2 weeks ago that a legging has turned up, said to belong to Keogh with a bullet hole in it, The bullet hole lines up nicely with the wound on Tonka/Comanche. It is said that it was originally found by the river, This writer postulates that Keogh could have been the officer wounded at the river. This writer further postulates that Keogh was placed in the swale with other wounded, much like Reno and Benteen placed their wounded in a swale to protect them.
Regards, Tom
P.S. probably should not have posted this as a book may be coming.
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