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Post by wild on Jul 10, 2017 11:21:57 GMT -6
Hi Fred
C'mon, Irish!! Check the timelines. You should know by now everything I do lives and dies with those timelines. No need to check the timelines this is strictly a tactical issue. We know that an not insignificant number of suvivors from Keogh reached LSH . Therefore Custer with 2 companies could have broken through to Keogh. He has a headstart and is going down hill. Changing from mounted to foot leaves him vulnerable to mounted warriors closing with him before he can form for defense.If as you say he is withdrawing under pressure he must keep going . Two companies have no chance standing alone. Keogh is his only option.
Fred, Custer is on LSH because he was leading all 5 companies Northwards in that direction . The distance from Calhoun Hill to LSH is the kind of distance a strung out 5 company column would cover [give or take a few meters]. Custer's entire left flank was open,his route taking him along the blind side of Battle Ridge.....an accident waiting to happen. He races for LSH ,Keogh further back cannot close up and halts and fights on foot ....thus the gap. Custer makes a stand on LSH because it was impossible to execute a 180 while under attack.
Timings and tactics will sometimes come into conflict and beyond MTC I imagine you are using extrapolation as a fit. Extrapolation will have a correct starting point and connect end point but it can wander a bit inbetween.
I think the tactical question is legit and worth discussing and I appreciate your recognition of this.
I'm ok Fred a bit lonely . The inlaw girls gravitate towards their own families and their husbands my sons just can't remember my number... such is life. I sometimes get to march with the old unit at a commeneration mass ...opens up the old war wounds and somewhere far off I hear the pipes and drums and the tunes of glory..... Garryowen and StPatricks day and of course fainne geal on lae come floating on the evening air.
Best Wishes Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 10, 2017 11:24:08 GMT -6
Just wondering and throwing out a question. Did Custer start thinking back to what happened to Gratton, Fetterman, & Kidder when he realized he may have bitten off more than he could chew?
Custer was a Civil War veteran and saw the type of horror that conventional warfare could inflict on human beings. He had a so-so history of combat with Native Americans and for the most part had good success when the odds were in his favor.
At the LBH odds seemed to be turning against him, even though Martini and Kanipe's overly optimistic reports back to Benteen and the Pack Train seemed to indicate that Custer was about to ride through the Village.
At some point GAC must have thought back to the dead, mutilated and horrible remains of fallen soldiers at the hands of the Indians.
Did he choke, hesitate, think twice about the capabilities of the 7th who he said that there was not enough Indians on the North American Continent to stop the 7th Cavalry?
Warfare takes more than bravery, numbers, and whose side God is on!
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Post by benteen on Jul 10, 2017 12:28:47 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
I believe all theories have merit. But, if I may play Devils Advocate, If in fact Custers column was hit with a flank attack pushing Cos E-F towards LSH,(North) and Cos I-C-L towards Calhoun hill(South). Then it stands to reason that the warriors pushing E-F North then they would be attacking from the South. Those pushing I-C-L Southward would be attacking from a Northerly direction.
Why is it then that there is no evidence that I-C-L had any concern with these warriors coming from the North. The only evidence we have of any defense is L Cos skirmish line and they were facing South not North. Harrington didnt seem concerned with this mighty horde coming from the North as he attacked West toward the Village. Keoghs I company didnt seem to be doing much of anything much less preparing for this attack from the North, no skirmish lines, nothing.
Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Jul 10, 2017 15:02:37 GMT -6
Hi Dan Agreed they did nothing. Resulting from the sudden onset of shock and awe caused by the unexpected arrival on their left flank of a million warriors. [See Union cavalry arrival on Stonewalls left flank at Cedar Mountain] Best Wishes Richard
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Post by wild on Jul 10, 2017 15:07:57 GMT -6
crzhrs Just wondering and throwing out a question. Did Custer start thinking back to what happened to Gratton, Fetterman, & Kidder when he realized he may have bitten off more than he could chew? When they dismounted on LSH every man jack of them knew Custer had done for them and if they had any sense they saved the first bullet for themselves. Cheers Richard
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Post by shan on Jul 11, 2017 13:58:44 GMT -6
Fred,
another article full of precision and logic as usual, but it prompts a question.
I remember reading somewhere, and I'm afraid I can't remember where, that as Custer moved up onto the bluffs shortly after having left Reno, a small patrol comprising something like 10 men from company C, I think, were sent on ahead as reconnaissance, a patrol who then went as far as Calhoun in order to assess the layout of the land, and, no doubt, to make sure that there wasn't a large force of Indians lurking somewhere up ahead.
Now I've always wondered A. where did that information come from given that all but Kanipe and Martin were dead, and B. was it in fact standard practise? And this is where my question comes in. If it was standard practise, then why wouldn't Custer use them again to explore the country up ahead, maybe even as far as the two ford D's if necessary, rather than going there with two companies himself ?
As an aside,on a completely different matter, I did make use of that gap along the LSH ridge in a painting I made of the battle some ten or twelve years ago. can't for the life of me remember where I got the information about the gap, but then that's true of most things these days,
regards, Shan ~~ David
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2017 18:00:52 GMT -6
David,
The sending of scouts to recce/recon the route was standing operating procedure, certainly for Custer, but I would think for everyone.
In this case, it was 5 or 6 troopers from F Company, not C. We hear of it from at least one source (Peter Thompson... something he said that rings true) and possibly two, though I cannot remember... Kanipe, maybe? We also hear of it at least twice, in two different areas: (1) around the lone tepee, and (2) as Custer was mounting the bluffs toward 3,411.
Here is another example of Custer's penchant for such: when Custer ordered LT Cooke to give Reno the order to charge, there are a number of accounts claiming it was Cooke who spoke to Reno, giving him the order, and several other accounts claiming it was Custer himself. The confusion, however, is easy to unjumble: after Cooke gave the order to Reno, Custer spoke to Reno and told him to send out a scouting detail ahead of his column and that LT Hare should lead it. Reno told French and French ordered 1SG Ryan to pick ten men and go with Hare. Remember, they were still a good mile and a half from the river and there was at least a single knoll blocking their sightline. That area is also where Hare, Davern, Gerard, and Herendeen had spotted the 20-50 warriors. So this scout-ahead business was just good tactics.
Remember, as well, Custer issued the same order-- through Voss and Sharrow-- to Benteen: Gibson and 6 men to head Benteen's column.
Here is something else telling us Custer used the same technique with the same F Company men as he moved toward Ford B: PVT Brown, a F Company trooper, lost control of his horse and it plunged across the ford, Brown's body being found on the river's west side in the Cheyenne village. Since Indian accounts tell us it was E Company arrayed along the ford's edge, in all likelihood Brown proceeded the column along with the scouts meeting his fate across Ford B.
Custer-- or any good commander-- would do that simply as an early-warning mechanism. I would assume he would have sent the same scouts ahead of his column as he approached Ford D. Remember, the main tactical device used by these Indians was the ambush, drawing troops into a tight spot, then pulling the trigger. Custer would have known this and the F Company scouts (for his column), the M Company scouts (for Reno's column), and the H Company scouts (for the Benteen column) would have fulfilled this requirement.
Hope you are doing well, David. As always, it is great to hear from you.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Jul 12, 2017 1:05:37 GMT -6
Custer-- or any good commander-- would do that simply as an early-warning mechanism. I would assume he would have sent the same scouts ahead of his column as he approached Ford D. Overdoing it a bit Fred? A recce for a recce?
I remember reading somewhere, and I'm afraid I can't remember where, that as Custer moved up onto the bluffs shortly after having left Reno, a small patrol comprising something like 10 men from company C, I think, were sent on ahead as reconnaissance, It was Custer himself who would do the recce if it was required . A tactical decision based on verbals is useless.[Benteen did his own] There is a penchant for military guff on boards such as this. Every conceivable maneuver and configuration must be applied. Among my favourites are Keogh in administrive reserve and Custer's demonstration at Ford B. Richard
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Jul 12, 2017 10:24:56 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I believe all theories have merit. But, if I may play Devils Advocate, If in fact Custers column was hit with a flank attack pushing Cos E-F towards LSH,(North) and Cos I-C-L towards Calhoun hill(South). Then it stands to reason that the warriors pushing E-F North then they would be attacking from the South. Those pushing I-C-L Southward would be attacking from a Northerly direction. Why is it then that there is no evidence that I-C-L had any concern with these warriors coming from the North. The only evidence we have of any defense is L Cos skirmish line and they were facing South not North. Harrington didnt seem concerned with this mighty horde coming from the North as he attacked West toward the Village. Keoghs I company didnt seem to be doing much of anything much less preparing for this attack from the North, no skirmish lines, nothing. Be Well Dan The Crazy Horse attack from the North? Complete surprise/shock?
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Post by benteen on Jul 12, 2017 12:45:30 GMT -6
[quote timestamp="1499711327" source="/post/119166/thread" author The Crazy Horse attack from the North? Complete surprise/shock? dgfred, I am sorry I dont understand your post. My fault not yours. By your post do you believe that C-I-L was attacked from the North or South. Be Well Dan
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Jul 13, 2017 17:40:38 GMT -6
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Post by benteen on Jul 14, 2017 13:50:47 GMT -6
dgfred, Beautiful picture, but I dont know where it is taken from.Is it taken from North to South or East to West etc. I am not as familiar with the landscape as others, and I would need to know where some markers are to figure it out. I dont even see the river, or LSH, Calhoun hill etc. If I knew where they were I could figure it out. Be Well Dan PS...If anyone more familiar with this area than I am. I would appreciate your import. Than You.
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Post by edavids on Jul 14, 2017 21:17:13 GMT -6
Just a wild guess but could that be Medicine Tail Coulee looking east to west?
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Post by montrose on Jul 15, 2017 9:52:23 GMT -6
I am seeing folks who rarely post log in. Say something. The default setting is insult Fred, else express an opinion. Most of us do not bite.
Join the conversation.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by wild on Jul 15, 2017 10:05:21 GMT -6
It is a tad less than 4 miles from Weir Point [where we see the last of Custer] via the drainage system to LSH. A 30 minute march? Using the more obvious drainage system leads out onto the blind side of Battle Ridge. The Indians are on average 1 mile distant from battle ridge. The question is: could they mass sufficent numbers to collide with Custer's strung out column and destroy it on the said ridge. Richard
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