jody
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Jul 15, 2017 19:30:37 GMT -6
Re: photo posted by "dgfred":
In a February 8, 2017 post on this site, "Fred" says, "This photo is of what used to be called, "Crazy Horse Ravine." It was posted here originally by a fellow named "mulligan." It was shot from the entrance road to the park. It is the route Custer took to Ford D (which is in the upper left part of the picture around the treeline). It is also where Kellogg's body was found by John Gibbon."
As I look on Google Maps, it seems to have been shot from the entrance road, just as "Fred" says, at about 900 ft or so Northwest of the cemetery. The photographer was facing almost due West. Jody
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Post by fred on Jul 16, 2017 5:36:25 GMT -6
Here are two more photos of Crazy Horse Ravine, both taken by me in June 2016... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Jul 16, 2017 6:24:48 GMT -6
I'm assuming that Custer was run to ground while retiring from the Ford D area? How could this happen? He had the high ground and would have seen the Indians massing. He knows that his force is too small to form a front. His only option is to run for Keogh yet this does not happen. He does not even seem to have made LSH with sufficent time to form an all round defense. Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2017 9:08:22 GMT -6
Wild I don't think the high ground allows a view into the timber area below CR. This year Tom and myself went into the Ford D area . We were in "Crazy Horse Ravine" . We also followed the old entrance road right up to the fence line at the Admin site. We then went back down and moved to Ford D which I believe is near the intestate road.
What I think now is that Custer could not find an unopposed crossing. A horse in water is not very fast and you would not have to lead it to shoot it. So firing from cover and concealment in the trees at horses in the river would not be a hard shot and it would not take many shooters to make high casualties for those attempting to cross. The river turns away from the bluffs in the Ford D area with the Big Village on the other side of the river and riparian timber on the egress side of the river.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2017 9:14:48 GMT -6
Here is a picture of a drainage leading to the old channel on the left with a narrow passage way to the flats where Ford D is located. On the right is the end of Battle Ridge Extension. The gap lead up "Crazy Horse Ravine" to LSH. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Jul 16, 2017 17:20:07 GMT -6
Hi AZ The Indians would not have required a ford at which to cross unlike the cavalry who had to operate in at least company strenght. Going to Ford D allowed the Indians to infiltrate and cut his line of communication with Keogh. Which is another example of the tactical bankrupcy of such an undertaking. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 17, 2017 10:12:58 GMT -6
Richard
My current opinion after my last visit in June of this year is that Custer never found an unopposed crossing place and that is beginning of the end. I do believe currently that more than two companies moved north of LSH. The artifacts found on BRE distinguish 4 carbines that were with Keogh's battalion. So unless 4 different Indians recovered them from Keogh's battalion and took them to shoot at E and F on cemetery ridge there could other explanations on how those 4 different carbine identified cases got there.
Gordie's book had his opinions on Custer moving north. Of course that would put if off NPS and north of the entrance. I asked at the visitor center if they had Gordie's and was told they voted not to have it on the shelf.
I also could not find Fred's books there. The Trading Post and the Garryowen Museum are a source for these books.
Regards
Steve
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Post by fred on Jul 17, 2017 11:23:44 GMT -6
I also could not find Fred's books there. The Trading Post and the Garryowen Museum are a source for these books. My books were not at Putt Thompson's Trading Post, though Kortlander carried them... at at least he had Strategy. I spoke to a ranger and he told me they believed there was too much wrong with the Harper book and that was why it wasn't carried. With mine, I do not know, but I suspect it is a lousy marketing job by my publisher. The LBH has never carried one of mine, despite the reviews. Personally, while it would be nice to see them there, I no longer care. After a while, the criticisms just roll off and mean nothing any more. I am working on a new one, a book inspired by Will Bender, you, Gerry Schultz, Beth, "Jodak," and Colt45. I am equally sure this new one will not be in the bookstore either. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 17, 2017 11:31:07 GMT -6
Fred
I think it is Cortlander at the Garryowen site. I saw it this year again. I did not see it at Putt's.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Jul 17, 2017 12:38:52 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with the above book stores . I imagine they are for the tourist . Someone who wants big coloured pictures and yarns and tales of daring do and cavalry souviners. A text book even the best one on the subject is going to have difficulties getting a place on such shelves. Look at the board here; how many of us are there? It's a small market. But Strategy will last unlike the monthly narratives which just parrot the usual tired hoary tales without an original line or ounce of research. Keep the faith Fred. Richard
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Post by fred on Jul 17, 2017 12:43:23 GMT -6
Fred I think it is Cortlander at the Garryowen site. I saw it this year again. I did not see it at Putt's. Steve, You are absolutely right: Kortlander, not Nightengale. I made the correction in my previous post. Thanks my friend. I'm not familiar with the above book stores . I imagine they are for the tourist . Someone who wants big coloured pictures and yarns and tales of daring do and cavalry souviners. A text book even the best one on the subject is going to have difficulties getting a place on such shelves. Look at the board here; how many of us are there? It's a small market. But Strategy will last unlike the monthly narratives which just parrot the usual tired hoary tales without an original line or ounce of research. Keep the faith Fred. Richard ... and thank you, Richard. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Jul 17, 2017 12:47:17 GMT -6
Hi AZ The artifacts found on BRE distinguish 4 carbines that were with Keogh's battalion. This is interesting. First off where is BRE? A carbine is a substantial artifact.That 4 of them were found on the battle field stretches credulity. Do you have any more info on these carbines? Richard
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Post by fred on Jul 17, 2017 18:45:54 GMT -6
Battle Ridge Extension... swings a bit north of Last Stand Hill. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 17, 2017 20:53:00 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with the above book stores . I imagine they are for the tourist . Someone who wants big coloured pictures and yarns and tales of daring do and cavalry souviners. A text book even the best one on the subject is going to have difficulties getting a place on such shelves. Look at the board here; how many of us are there? It's a small market. But Strategy will last unlike the monthly narratives which just parrot the usual tired hoary tales without an original line or ounce of research. Keep the faith Fred. Richard Richard I think both the Trading Post and the Museum/bookstore/gift shop are way above the description you imagine. I think the Park Service store is geared toward the tourist but also at least some other books. When you have to pay over $100 for a book it is well beyond what the average tourist buys. There are lots of books in the $30-$75 range that the average tourist would not by. I bought Roger Darlings --Benteen's Scout to the Left-- for $50 and it was well worth it. It included a map which we used as a guide for our ride. I think Putt and Cortlander do a good job with the variety of the books they have on the shelves. Putt needs to add Fred's books and I will talk to him about it. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 17, 2017 20:59:50 GMT -6
Hi AZ The artifacts found on BRE distinguish 4 carbines that were with Keogh's battalion.
This is interesting. First off where is BRE? A carbine is a substantial artifact.That 4 of them were found on the battle field stretches credulity. Do you have any more info on these carbines? Richard Sorry for the confusion. I did not state 4 carbines were found but I could have made it clearer. The artifacts are the cases with tool markings that match with carbine cases in the Keogh/Calhoun area. They did find a carbine near highway 212 and near the road where we exit when riding along the back side of the battlefield. You should recall that Scott was involved with the identification of cases identifying particular weapons on the battlefield. What is important is that the Springfield carbine requires manual movements for extraction and ejection to fire more than one shot or to leave a case on the ground. Regards Steve
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