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Post by wild on Jul 18, 2017 14:47:42 GMT -6
And I would add to yours above Dan that if Custer aborted an attack at Ford B then the Indians were on his case.
And In response to the Colonels above, that Custer lost any chance he had of getting a favourable result when he aborted his advance on Ford B. Turning from aggression to a suggested passive ineffectual recce has doom written all over it Best Richard
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Post by benteen on Jul 18, 2017 15:01:10 GMT -6
And I would add to yours above Dan that if Custer aborted an attack at Ford B then the Indians were on his case. Best Richard Hi Richard, I agree. Furthermore as I have said in the past, I believe these Indians knew where Custer was from the time he left the Powder River depot. What they didnt know was what he was planning to do. Be Well Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 18, 2017 17:43:53 GMT -6
Dan,
Regarding Dust.
Depends upon how they maneuvered, speed, and spacing/interval. Certainly it would have been hard to conceal. Was the attention of the village focused on the southern attack as GAC desired? As I mentioned above, to some degree GAC was harried by Wolf Tooth's band. This may have drawn attention late. Ask Bill, I am sure he can cut and paste something that makes GAC smell good. Just kidding. I can't ask him, but I am sure he checks in here from time to time, I can at least see what he posts. I have however only been their twice since I was banned, mostly to see what his hero worshiper posted, and I was lead on by others. Hope his meeting with Lowell went well and he snowed him good. Lorne must have F-ed up.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 19, 2017 6:12:41 GMT -6
Ford B was an opposed crossing place. Soldiers would be exposed to fire on the approach and during the crossing of the river. The egress from the river is into trees and you would have to get through the trees to reform. The village was right there as you come out of the trees.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by shan on Jul 19, 2017 7:59:07 GMT -6
I wonder could I pose a few questions that have never been answered, at least as far as I'm concerned, to all you good folks out there.
The first one concerns the so called Suicide boys. Now as far as I'm aware, the Indians gathered on the opposite side of the river from the fords D, were mainly women and children, plus some old folks and the disabled, together with a number of middle aged warriors who were too old to fight but who were there looking out for them, plus, I would imagine, a few warriors who preferred to be closer to their families rather that riding all around the hills, in other words, these may have been the Indians that Custer might have caught sight of as he rode down to the fords.
Now a little while later ~~ I find it hard to believe JSIT assertion that they may have waited on Cemetery ridge for as much as 20 to 30 minutes, thinking myself that Custer would have been under too much pressure to be doing that ~~ after Custer had turned away and was deploying his two companies to move back towards LSH, Indian testimony, both verbal and pictorial, indicate that E troop in particular, were hit by the Suicide boys, who, amongst other things, ran off most of their horses.
Given that, if I understand correctly, that most of the suicide boys were Cheyenne, and that the Cheyenne camp was further down the river, towards MTF, what were they doing coming in from the general direction of the visitor centre, and if they were hanging around in that area, wouldn't Custer have been aware of them?
My other question concerns something that we'll never know, but I like to hear your opinions. Was E troops move off LSH, flight, or an ordered manoeuvre in order to force the Indians to split their forces and fight: however briefly, on two fronts?
I save some of the other questions until later,
thanks David.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 19, 2017 8:22:44 GMT -6
Shan, Custer was not aware of the suicide boys, yes they were mostly Cheyenne, the Cheyenne Circle extended below/beyond MTF/Ford B. The suicide boys were late to the party, mostly attacked fixed positions.
Custer did for whatever reason spend time on CR probably to regroup and probably deployed E in this area to help cover the withdrawal, they may have been a bit west and south of CR.
As you have stated the non combatants were moved toward the north and in many cases were arrayed on the benches beyond the Circle. Sitting Bull may have viewed the battle from there.
Fred can now tell me where I am wrong.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Jul 19, 2017 10:03:09 GMT -6
Shan My other question concerns something that we'll never know, but I like to hear your opinions. Was E troops move off LSH, flight, or an ordered manoeuvre in order to force the Indians to split their forces and fight: however briefly, on two fronts You can think up unlimited tactical solutions as to why a unit terminated in any particular position and any particular formation. The board here [with one or two outstanding exxecptions] holds that the 5 companies , the two battalions and the command as a whole was fought as a division of the waffen SS might be fought ,with a highly tuned command and control system and an inpenetrable skirmish line formation. Every conceivable manuever is employed and guess what not a single man got out alive.Meanwhile a million Indians go unnoticed. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Jul 20, 2017 17:05:21 GMT -6
Are we not all agreed that Custer was supremly, confident over confident in fact? Numbers were not a consideration His plan [on the hoof] was a two pronged attack . So why did he not attack across ford B ? Absoutely nothing had changed accept that the attack of his own wing was a tad delayed. Benteen or the packs formed no part of plan. Yet after he views the village everything changes . Now it's get Benteen up here fast and even seeing Reno in action no attempt is made at Ford B. Where had all the aggression gone? Just saying: if the likes of Patton was in command that Ford would have been crossed ,maybe at some cost . Was Ford B not what Custer wanted, hell for leather and guts and glory. What an anticlimax? Richard
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jody
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Jul 20, 2017 22:34:15 GMT -6
My contention is that Custer was not seeking an entrance to the valley via Ford B. Rather he was seeking a future EXIT from the village.
The scout/diversion by a company or two was to 1. Find a suitable ford for crossing from the valley to the hills and 2. Throw a "skeer" into that Northern part of the village across from ford B. This would scatter the women and children away and the warriors would leave to find their mounts. Reno's attack at the Southern end had done this already. (And if it was me, I would have everyone who had a flag or guidon go along and all the trumpeters too. Maybe a few volleys from the main body still on the move in column to make the point perfectly clear.) Tell them not to get bogged down in a fight, just do the theater and join up with the rear of the main body when they're done.
But why? Well, to get the residents away from their homes. With the village essentially emptied, the right wing continues North past the main village, crosses at ford D. swings south, rides through the village and Burns It. Then exits via Ford B and rally in the hills. Like at Washita.
Only this time the pack train isn't miles and miles away but at hand in the hills and guarded by an entire Battalion, Benteen's - if he followed his written and verbal orders.
The destruction of the enemy's shelter, food, clothing, etc. would essentially hobble them. And by burning them out when they are not home obviates the need for a massed Cavalry fight in the valley, or wishfully depending on a couple dozen Crows to drive off or capture a few thousand horses, or "urban warfare" clearing the village tepee by tepee.
Plus Custer would win the day using the exact same troops that Reno had on his scout. A little sauce for the steak, that.
May I also note that when Terry's men saw the smoke up the valley they thought it was "Custer burning the village." Jody
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jody
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Post by jody on Jul 20, 2017 23:01:09 GMT -6
And while I'm ranting, just who stopped the small unit scout of ford D, the ford that the main body was to use to get into the valley?
Aside: I think Custer had this Northern ford in mind all along - actually since the Crows Nest, but that's for another Post -and as soon as he ditched Benteen and Reno he was on his way like a shot. He did, after all, pass up two ways into the valley. His idea fixe was that northern entrance.
Where was I, oh yeah, who opposed whoever it was checking out ford D ahead of the column? Consider: Hundreds of young, un-attached men who had joined the Cheyenne for the Summer Fun. All with a horse or two and every swinging...with a weapon. What to do with them? Put them one or two at a time in the tribal tents where they can make eyes at the daughters, eat you out of house and home, and generally behave their age? Naw.
What you do is stick them as a group a ways north of the main camps, where the river meanders by that ford and there are lots of cottonwoods for wiki-ups. Sure it's downstream where the water is bad, but hey, they're tough and besides, as they told me in the Army when I had KP, it's "character building."
Too bad for the recon unit that wiki-ups are harder to see in woods than tepees on the open valley floor. And that all those guys are anxious to "make their bones" as the Cosa Nostra say, have their weapons to hand, no family to worry about, the pony tied up handy to your hovel, and the soldiers are just steps away. Must have been like a shooting gallery for the braves. Jody
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jody
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Post by jody on Jul 21, 2017 0:07:13 GMT -6
By the way, I'm writing this in sections as the first post was eaten and is now in never-to-be-found-again land somewhere in the electronic ether.
Meanwhile, Reno, attacking by the book (that'll be in yet another post soon), breaks out and tries for the only entrance to the valley that He knows about, and draws the Sioux with him and everyone else in the upper valley even to Reno creek - lucky for Benteen and the pack train, btw.
But the Cheyenne, though initially cowed, examples "There looked like a million of them!" and at ford B, "There's too many!" Do get saddled up and swarm across the B ford. The main body is in column moving north back a bit in the hills. Harrassed by Wolf Tooth and Co., guys out early watching the old lady dig turnips, and maybe hunters returning from bagging buffalo on Tullocks too, remember them? The Ford B soldiers right oblique to try and join them at their rear, but form along Finley/Finkle and Calhoun hill to cover the main body going north.
Custer, as is his wont, is riding forward of the regiment with two companies. His headquarters troopers are there, plus most of the Company Commanders - RHIP and better to ride up front than eat the dust back with your company, 'sides that's what Lieutenants are for - and their orderies, messengers, trumpters, personal cooks, body servants, etc. Enlisted people from almost all the companies. (Yeah, another future post.)
So, GAC plants his flag at the top of the ridge and the officers and their retinue hang out just down the hill from that below the military crest, short break while awaiting word from the ford D scouts.
Word doesn't come, but they do, followed by more than enough Indians. And not just from the mouth of Crazy Horse Ravine, but over the flats too. F goes down that way to help out, then withdraws. E is sent down to fire North at them too. Poor E, braves go up Deep Ravine behind them and hit them from the rear, for E is positioned on the obverse side Cemetery ridge from DR and shooting in the opposite direction.
Crazy Horse uses DR and charges over the ridge, splitting the main body, and right after they are destroyed in detail, in Column formation, by enemy rolling them up from Calhoun.
No fancy subtle and cunning shifting of troops under fire ala Guderian. No intricate "school solutions" either.
Just 200+ men killed in column, and quickly.
And the rest of the regiment left in the learch.
All on the orders of Custer.
Jody
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 21, 2017 9:06:36 GMT -6
Hi Jody
I think the Cheyennes were at Ford D in numbers and had thier horses across the river from the camps. They were getting thier horses when as one account states they see Custer moving toward thier end of the Big Village. They move toward Custer and leave the large number of Indians fighting Reno to that engagement. I think they crossed between Ford B and Ford D. In particular on the flat below CR.
So a few questions on how you think things happened. Did the note to Benteen contain orders to go to Custer or Reno? Depending on which you chose the scenarios are different.
Could C, I, L if you choose the note meant to go to Custer provide support to Benteen with whatever number of pack animals that you choose?
Something Fred has stated here and I have heard it before think simple rather than complicated actions.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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jody
Junior Member
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Post by jody on Jul 21, 2017 10:55:42 GMT -6
Hello AZ Ranger
I agree with you about the placement of the Cheyennes and their route to attack. My small point was that the initial resistance to the scouting party and forcing their retirement was by the young men from their basically hidden encampment in the woods around the ford. The main force of the Cheyenne just followed the retreating scouting party right back to the Regiment, which was hidden from them on the back side of the ridge heretofore.
I think the orders to Benteen, both verbal - from Martin and then Knipe (and yes, I think he was a messenger) - and written delivered by Martin were to go to Custer.
It is an order from the Regimental Commander, traveling with the Regiment. I think the idea that Benteen is to come to him is implicit. They are not marching in the valley. They are on the bluffs. They plan on staying on the bluffs as Capt. Custer says to Martin, I paraphrase, "Deliver the msg. Come back here if it's safe. If not come along with your company." Martin's parent company is with Benteen. He does not say, "Deliver the msg and join Reno in the valley."
One of the two messengers, sorry reference not handy, also says that the pack train should "cut across country" to deliver itself. No mention of going to the valley after Reno. And no "bring up just the ammo pack animals" either. on the contrary, MacDougal, or whomever, is to "cut off any loose packs, but not the ammo packs." If only the ammo mules were to come, why talk about the stuff carried by the other mules as being expendable? Apologize for not getting the quotes exact.
The written note tells Benteen, twice, to "bring pack". Once in the main body of the order and again,all by itself as a PS, just to make sure he gets the idea. Note, if you look closely at all the letter "k"s in said note, you will see that the word is "pack", singular, both times, not "pacs". Obviously, well to me, short for "pack train".
And he and his Battalion, In my opinion, are to physically be right there with the pack train as they advance. In close guard.
A couple things about that:
Recall that when the 7th initially moved up the Rosebud, even close as they were to Terry's camp and far from the Sioux, they used Multiple companies to guard the pack train. The number of men from each company to pack and lead their mules was up to the various company commanders also. Benteen mentions this in the Golden Letters. When they left that valley to cross to the Little Horn valley, and just before the divide,Custer reduced the guard to one company even though they were now very close to contact. And Custer now specified the smallest number of men from each company, six and a sgt, to deal with the mules. Why? In the close drainage leading to the river, the main body sweeping ahead should clear that line of advance of enemy. One company guarding the rear should be enough to maintain security at that end. This frees up the numerous companies guarding the pack train to be used to fight. Same with the enlisted people. The pack train wasn't safely left, say, on the divide, because that would put it way out of range of the main body and also subject it to attack a lesson learned at the Washita.
Benteen was not instructed to forge ahead of pack train. He was very fortunate that his idea that he could leave them safely behind because "I knew the Indians could not get through me to them." was not put to the test. Even Godfrey stated, "Benteen was lucky that the Indians didn't get around him and at the pack train."
Just before Martin left, he says Custer said about the village, "They are asleep in their tepees!" There was no action at this time. His impression was having achieved complete surprise and expecting a successful attack. As I proposed in my posts, he was going to attack from the North, burn the village, exit the valley via Ford B, and then rally on the bluffs just above where Benteen and the pack train would meet them AFTER the victorious fight.
So, no, L,C,and I were not waiting for Benteen on Luce or Calhoun or anywhere else. No one was "waiting for Benteen" or the packtrain in order to Start the battle. Or continue it for that matter.
Really, do you suppose that hard-charging Custer, who got his command to the village as quickly as he could, and was like what, a half-mile from engaging the hostiles, suddenly dropped off half his troops, with a "I think it would be prudent to pause and wait for Benteen, wherever he's gotten to, to join us. Smoke if you got 'em."
So simply put, Custer will 1. Go North in column, 2. cross below the village, 3.ride through the (hopefully) deserted encampment, 4. burn it, 5. cross the river, 6.mount the bluffs, and 7. there on the high ground, re-assemble everybody.
But he got caught moving. #2 - 7 never happened. Butchered in column. A formation most vulnerable to attack and weakest in defense. I think Fred will confirm that.
Jody
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Post by wild on Jul 21, 2017 12:05:50 GMT -6
Jody
So simply put, Custer will 1. Go North in column, 2. cross below the village, 3.ride through the (hopefully) deserted encampment, 4. burn it, 5. cross the river, 6.mount the bluffs, and 7. there on the high ground, re-assemble everybody. Custer did not know where the village was in relation to Ford D.He did not know Ford D existed. Richard
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jody
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Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Jul 21, 2017 13:26:01 GMT -6
To Wild
Sir:
Mitch Bouyer couldn't tell him about a ford?
Is the view of the valley and the village from Battle Ridge obscured by terrain features?
There must be a ford downstream somewhere, don't think there are sheer bluffs going on forever. To find out, send the scouting unit, maybe those hardies from Co F ahead with orders like, "Go find me a way to cross the river past the end of the village."
And then doesn't Thompson relate the rumor in the 7th after the battle that a scout misled Custer and sent him to a ford a mile and a half too far downstream or something, thus causing his defeat? Some kernal of truth there, perhaps, at least regarding Custer's intention to cross in the North.
Or if it's felt that Custer wasn't seeking a way across the river downstream of the village, what was he doing heading North - fleeing to Terry as some of the Left Wing troops speculated?
There's a technique that was used in WWII submarine warfare that is analogous to Custer's movements. A sub, finding a convoy, would parallel it's course and pull ahead. Once out front, the sub would then turn and position itself directly into the oncoming ships' paths. It would then attack from there. During the daylight it would remain submerged and allow the convoy to pass by while shooting torpedos left and right, then once the targets were gone, dive and get away. At night, a surface attack was preferred using the sub's cannon, 20mms and machine guns. Saved valuable and scarce torpedos that way. Was effective too, as a study after the war by the Merchant Marine found that if a US merchant vessel is attacked, by bombs, kamikazes, machine guns, mines, torpedos, shell fire, whatever, it was sunk 90% of the time. And a sunk ship lost 90% of it's crew on average too.
Anyway,that initial maneuvering by one of our subs was dubbed an "End around."
So, to get even simpler, what Custer was doing was an "End Around."
Or we could use more Patton-like language, "Hold 'em by the nose (Reno) and kick 'em in the ass (Custer)"
Or we can discuss "schwerpunkt","weight of attack", "double envelopments", "flank attacks on targets with no fronts", "meeting engagements", "'fixing' mobile large forces", "superiority of the mounted cavalry charge", "interior vs exterior lines of communications", and so forth. Read many pages on those tactics.
I like "End Around".
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