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Post by dave on Mar 9, 2017 18:11:21 GMT -6
Richard If I sounded like I was judging your attitude I apologize as I am not in any place to judge others. You have never been impolite to me and I desire to be the same.
I encourage you to stick to your opinion though to me it be a untenable position. Have a great evening. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 18:45:48 GMT -6
Hi dAN Thank you for your most reasonable post
I think that Richards negative remarks about Benteen is as much about doctrine as it is about Benteen. Yes Dan agreed .It is a tactical issue .
Richard was a soldier in his countries army. He takes pride in his Army and his service in it, as people from all countries take pride in their respective Armies. Served in the corps of engineers and reserves.
It has been said many times in the forum that in the US Military an Officer obeys orders, however if circumstances arise, the Officer is not just allowed but expected to assess,evaluate and take the best course of action depending on the circumstances. Again agreed .
Not so in Richards Army. You will obey your orders no matter what, and not deviate from them. Even if circumstances have changed and make the original order useless. Actually we are much closer to the international and US method of pushing the responsibility down the line to the man on site.
in the US Military an Officer obeys orders, however if circumstances arise, the Officer is not just allowed but expected to assess,evaluate and take the best course of action depending on the circumstances I agree with this in as far as it goes but I would add ...to support the mission. Because without mentioning the mission there is total freedom of action and it permits local decisions to be made without consideration being given to the mission. Are we saying that "best available decision" allowed Benteen with only local intell and without attempting to communicate with HQ to act contrary to the mission?
To Richard Benteen should have gone by Reno and charged across the plain to go to Custer. No, he should have as you said above ,assesss and evaluate the situation and that could not be done on Reno hill.
Richard....You know me for years and know that I never get upset about being corrected. I take nothing personal. So tell me if this is in part your feelings toward Benteen. Always a gentleman Dan and a scholar, my best regards Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 19:01:06 GMT -6
Hi Dave If I sounded like I was judging your attitude I apologize as I am not in any place to judge others. You have never been impolite to me and I desire to be the same. Most gracious of you
I encourage you to stick to your opinion though to me it be a untenable position. Have a great evening. I would actually prefare if the discussion was decided one way or the other for if there is no resolution with Benteen what chance Custer? Hurrah Richard
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Post by george50 on Mar 9, 2017 19:43:59 GMT -6
George did you get the PM? Regards Dave
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Post by george50 on Mar 9, 2017 19:50:33 GMT -6
Yes,Dave! Thank you! I will be sure to read over those.
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Post by george50 on Mar 9, 2017 21:08:20 GMT -6
I have to agree that there was most definitely a serious breakdown in communication at LBH. In fact, I believe this was probably one of the major factors that greatly contributed to Custer's defeat. However that being said, there is another question that keeps rolling around in my mind. That question is, WHY would it have been Benteen's responsibility to re-establish communication with Custer? I mean, think about it. Several of us are in agreement that the Martini note was somewhat vague and was very open to interpretation. Benteen was unaware that Custer had divided the command and the note did not specify who exactly that Benteen was to report to. In effect all it told him to do was bring the packs and rejoin the command. Which he did, even though he didn't have the packs with him. When he linked up with Reno he had effectively rejoined the command. Reno was second in command of the 7th Cavalry and there by Benteen's superior. If anybody was responsible for trying to reestablish communication with Custer it was Reno. Benteen could have suggested to Reno that they needed to try and make contact with Custer but ultimately it was Reno's decision. I know that not everyone is going to agree with this assertion but as I see it to place blame on Benteen for failing to reopen lines of communication with Custer is placing it on the wrong person.
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 0:56:23 GMT -6
Hi George 50 Unless HQ is kept informed of progress or changes ie mission accomplished ,mission failure ,the command and control system will cease to function. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 10, 2017 5:49:33 GMT -6
I think Richard is arguing with himself of the past and it is quite evident from his posts on the AAO board. He totally agrees with most of the comments that are made to him. So repeating what he himself was using in the early 2000's is not what his discussion is about.
What made you change your mind from " I think he acted correctly." and do a reverse should be the question.
There was 50 pages on a Benteen thread and the moderator finally closed the thread because it was getting out of hand. Going back and looking at what DC and wILDI had posted brought back some good memories. I also have the responses to Richard's current opinion by using his own posts which he did a great job.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 10, 2017 6:11:54 GMT -6
The following are Richards own words about Benteen:
I think he acted correctly.
At that point in time there was nothing that indicated that Benteen should have done anything differently.
What information has Benteen got about the dispositions of the various units of the regiment or their condition when Martini arrives---none.His orders are to bring the packs and this means waiting for them which he does.
He then does carry out his order and "comes on"to find Reno fighting for his life.
If Benteen had tried to join up with Custer it would have done nomore than delay the enevitable by 30 minutes at the cost of the entire regiment.
Benteen carried out his orders. He hurried the pack train along and did seek out the big village where he found elements of the regiment in great difficulty.
I think the following is Richard at his best and right on.
The Indians reacted in overwhelming force to the 4 situations which arose during Custer's attack on the village.
1 Reno's attack------------Routed with heavy casualties 2 Custers attack ----------Annihilated 3Reno & Benteens advance---Repulsed 4Reno & Benteens defence---Heavy casualties /7th neutralized as an attacking force.
I think Richard's opinion below is not that of Richard's current opinion. So the question is what changed?
In this discussion some people have critized Benteen and Reno and make a case for Custer being a victim of the cowardice/incompetance/disloyalty of these officers.Well Custer did not support Reno as promised.He could not even attack the village and the handling of his command when in contact with the enemy and in defence was deplorable. If Custer had survived he should have been shot for murder for that is what it amounted to. Slan
Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 10, 2017 8:13:53 GMT -6
Hi George 50 Unless HQ is kept informed of progress or changes ie mission accomplished ,mission failure ,the command and control system will cease to function. Cheers Richard Let me tweak this a wee bit. Unless HQ keeps the remainder of the command informed of progress and it continues to distance itself from any means of support and communication, the command and control system will cease to function. This on top of the fact that his GAC's initial plan seems to never have been shared. Cheers to you partner! I would love to say game, set, and match, but I know better.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 10:44:58 GMT -6
Hi Tom Unless HQ keeps the remainder of the command informed of progress and it continues to distance itself from any means of support and communication, the command and control system will cease to function. Are you suggesting that failures at HQ should be replicated at unit level? Are you suggesting that failures at higher level justifies failures at lower level? Am I right in thinking that you support the Ford D scenario? If you support Ford D then Custer has deployed his command with the arrival of Benteen catered for and has sent the necessary orders to which Benteen is obliged to comply. Benteen neither complys with the order or informs HQ of his noncompliance . Best Wishes Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 10, 2017 10:55:12 GMT -6
I think we are beating a dead horse here. While I am not in agreement with Wild's opinion of Benteen's actions or lack therof, thank God he provides thoughtful arguments instead of bull***t as some on the LBHA 'official' board do.
Best,
David
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 11:20:14 GMT -6
Hi AZ I had no idea you were keeping a file on me .I'm flattered .
I think change of mind would be indicative of development,improvement ,better understanding etc. I'v bought every Custer book I could lay my hands on and I like to supplement my reading by research and testing theories here on the board.I'v also years of experience both with the military and also with both organising and competing in adventure sports. I'v first hand knowledge of human nature and it's default/ out of its comfort zone mode. This board , this exchange of ideas is only worthwhile if we are prepared to change. At the moment my pecking order of our heros is Reno with at the moment Custer and Benteen running neck and neck. I hope to take a serious look at Benteen's oblique march and if that shows that Benteen was playing silly buggers then I'll change my mind re Custer with a possible knockon effect re Keogh and Ford D.
Best Wishes Richard Ps You published some good maps on the oblique march annie idea WHERE THEY ARE TO BE FOUND.
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 11:24:38 GMT -6
Hi EDavid Thanks for that .I'm heartened by even a half nod. Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 10, 2017 14:31:54 GMT -6
Hi Tom Unless HQ keeps the remainder of the command informed of progress and it continues to distance itself from any means of support and communication, the command and control system will cease to function.Are you suggesting that failures at HQ should be replicated at unit level? Absolutely not. Was Benteen to be quick to Reno who was closest to the "Big Village" at the time the note was transmitted?Are you suggesting that failures at higher level justifies failures at lower level? Again, absolutely not, I do not like nor will tolerate poorly executed failures, easily, at any level. I just fail to see the failure here.Am I right in thinking that you support the Ford D scenario? If you support Ford D then Custer has deployed his command with the arrival of Benteen catered for and has sent the necessary orders to which Benteen is obliged to comply. The note did not say north of "Big Village."Benteen neither complys with the order or informs HQ of his noncompliance . HQ was a moving target, at least for a while, but he did report to his immediate superior, who also did know where HQ was. That was all that was required under the circumstances.Best Wishes Richard Richard,
Even as a lowly Master Sargent, I found some orders impossible to comply with, so instead I opted to do the right thing, for the existing situation. As a civilian I once risked a law suit, by removing a mans head from a windshield to apply pressure to a rather nasty wound. I have always done what I think is right. I know you would too.
Regards, Tom
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