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Post by george50 on Mar 10, 2017 16:13:36 GMT -6
Let's say it was Benteen's duty to establish contact with Custer. I really don't believe that that was something they were capable of doing. Benteen probably realized shortly after he linked up Reno that they were now under siege and trying to get to Custer was going to very difficult. After the attempt by Weir was repulsed, I think his doubts were probably confirmed. So regardless of whose responsibility it was, it doesn't matter because it just wasn't viable option.
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 16:33:14 GMT -6
Hi Tom Blue is difficult to read chief.
There are two kinds of right; the mission [COs] right and the local / subordinate right. If every officer has the authority to do what is right regardless then there is in effect no command and control. All actions other than in support of the mission would be investigated by a court martial.
If there was a possibility of communicating with Custer, Benteen was obliged to take it.It would not have effected his relinquishing of his command as was evidenced by his later advance to Weir Point without Reno's permission.
Best Regards Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 16:44:16 GMT -6
george 50 Let's say it was Benteen's duty to establish contact with Custer. I really don't believe that that was something they were capable of doing. Benteen probably realized shortly after he linked up Reno that they were now under siege and trying to get to Custer was going to very difficult. After the attempt by Weir was repulsed, I think his doubts were probably confirmed. So regardless of whose responsibility it was, it doesn't matter because it just wasn't viable option. Again there is a theory[ford D] supported by the majority that Custer had placed a battalion on Calhoun Hill to assist the approach of Benteen. Benteen did not know this. Custer could have been just beyond Weir Point for all he knew but he [Benteen] was duty bound to make an attempt to aquaint himself with the bigger picture. His decision to halt was a mile premature. Cheers Richard.
I will respond to all posts on this issue but I think we have flogged it to death.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 10, 2017 18:17:31 GMT -6
Hi AZ I had no idea you were keeping a file on me .I'm flattered . I think change of mind would be indicative of development,improvement ,better understanding etc. I'v bought every Custer book I could lay my hands on and I like to supplement my reading by research and testing theories here on the board.I'v also years of experience both with the military and also with both organising and competing in adventure sports. I'v first hand knowledge of human nature and it's default/ out of its comfort zone mode. This board , this exchange of ideas is only worthwhile if we are prepared to change. At the moment my pecking order of our heros is Reno with at the moment Custer and Benteen running neck and neck. I hope to take a serious look at Benteen's oblique march and if that shows that Benteen was playing silly buggers then I'll change my mind re Custer with a possible knockon effect re Keogh and Ford D. Best Wishes Richard Ps You published some good maps on the oblique march annie idea WHERE THEY ARE TO BE FOUND. Hi Richard Wrong I kept no records. The AAO website is still up and I went there and looked at it. I then went to the Benteen thread and the rest is history. So to me it appears you are wasting time for other posters since you held the same positions they are trying to defend. www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=145&whichpage=1So you commented on your military experience in 2004 have you had more experience since then? I always enjoy the exchanges and feel it is good for the board. Now I don't have to do any homework. I can just post your answers to the same questions you are asking now. For those that are frustrated it would be good to know that you supported thier positions and therefore understand their current opinions. I would think the maps are still up in the Benteen Dawdling thread. You can see threads without having to log on the site. Good Luck Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 10, 2017 18:22:59 GMT -6
Hi Tom Blue is difficult to read chief. There are two kinds of right; the mission [COs] right and the local / subordinate right. If every officer has the authority to do what is right regardless then there is in effect no command and control. All actions other than in support of the mission would be investigated by a court martial. If there was a possibility of communicating with Custer, Benteen was obliged to take it.It would not have effected his relinquishing of his command as was evidenced by his later advance to Weir Point without Reno's permission. Best Regards Richard Richard What I do is highlight it like I was going to copy it and it turns white with a blue background Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 10, 2017 18:45:36 GMT -6
Richard
We know the real truth and it was that DC started to defend Benteen and of course you could have none of that. Immediately you began to change your opinion. I hadn't looked at those threads in a long time and last time I posted was in 2014 just to keep up with Joe Wiggs.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 10, 2017 18:57:02 GMT -6
Hi AZ We know the real truth and it was that DC started to defend Benteen and of course you could have none of that. Immediately you began to change your opinion. I hadn't looked at those threads in a long time and last time I posted was in 2014 just to keep up with Joe Wiggs. I suppose when you cannot play the ball you play the man. I had hoped that this would be discussion between gentlemen and that we could keep the personal out of it. I resent the innuendo that I was anything but truthful . I trust you will not continue in this manner. Cheers Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2017 3:52:47 GMT -6
Richard,
You have known Steve longer than I have, via the boards, by a goodly amount. I am sure there is no malice intended. This exchange has been good for all engaged and the board in general. You once called me a 1920's socialist over the same topic, over my rather trite comments, and I understood your point. Please note I have not trotted out my Benteen should have carried out my "Benteen should have carried out his last verbal order from GAC to the letter of the law." Martini never would have found him and the entire command would have been wiped out, save Benteen's three.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Mar 11, 2017 4:45:23 GMT -6
Hi Tom
You have known Steve longer than I have, via the boards, by a goodly amount. I am sure there is no malice intended. I'm sure there isn't Tom.
Please note I have not trotted out my Benteen should have carried out my "Benteen should have carried out his last verbal order from GAC to the letter of the law." Martini never would have found him and the entire command would have been wiped out, save Benteen's three.
This is an excellent point. Sometimes I think what I'v posted is clear, forgetting that there is a great deal of difference between how Americans use English and how we use it on this side of the pond. So this gives me a chance to clarify..... Benteen was given an order to scout to the left [oblique] and his progressing of this order was mission positive . [I'm keeping my options open on this].His diaviating from the letter of the law was a local decision in favour of the mission ...no problem. His decision to halt his battalion to assist Reno was not an action in favour of the mission. My understanding is that the majority here [everyone other than me]hold that he had the authority to do this based on local conditions and regardless of it's effect on the mission? I hope I'v stated that fairly. If that is the issue then it is just a matter of agreeing to disagree.
The oblique march is interesting and worth further examination.
All the best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 11, 2017 6:08:54 GMT -6
Hi AZ We know the real truth and it was that DC started to defend Benteen and of course you could have none of that. Immediately you began to change your opinion. I hadn't looked at those threads in a long time and last time I posted was in 2014 just to keep up with Joe Wiggs.I suppose when you cannot play the ball you play the man. I had hoped that this would be discussion between gentlemen and that we could keep the personal out of it. I resent the innuendo that I was anything but truthful . I trust you will not continue in this manner. Cheers Richard Richard it is not about truth. I am sorry if you took it that way. We all have memory failures and time tends to increase the chance for error over time. What is clear by reading our old posts is that in 2004 you first stated Benteen was correct. Later in 2004 you engaged with DC and you changed positions within a manner of months. I don't think in that short period of time there were a lot books bought and more military time. I agree that we all can change opinions over time. Even Benteen changed his opinion several times. The old board is like writing a report and using it to refresh your memory. I believe you when you stated that you thought time, reading more, and military service caused you to change your opinion. So I again read where it changed in 2004 and it was within a matter of months. The big difference is that you were opposing DC which you liked to do. He was always a challenge and you enjoyed it. We miss DC Regarding " I suppose when you cannot play the ball you play the man". I think in baseball they do both don't you? Maybe walk the man because he is a hitter and play the ball at other times. To me it was just a way to explain why you held your position against what appears as overwhelming opposite opinions held by others. You view this as a game and pick which ever side you choose to defend. Nothing wrong with that but others think that if they can support thier opinion it might change your opinion. The good thing is you help others firm up thier opinions and increase the number of posts. The problem is it never ends and they get frustrated with attempting to present thier position. As you may or not recall that thread was eventually locked by the moderator. I think our differences are that I can be persuaded to change opinions with a good presentation of facts used to form a different opinion. I think you pick an opinion and defend it. That opinion will not change by someone else presenting facts. Regards Your Friend Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 11, 2017 9:56:37 GMT -6
Hi AZ I'm going to take your post as well meaning and that it is not your intention to discredit me in the eyes of fellow posters. I cannot accept what you have written because it is personal and negative .I'm saying this because at a later date someone such as yourself might be looking back on old posts and make the assumption that I agreed with your opinion. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 12, 2017 2:23:51 GMT -6
Besides the "note" there are two other episodes in the Benteen trilogy and though not as critical are just as noteworthy to wit Benteen's defence of Reno Hill and his valley hunting. Later.....
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 12, 2017 6:35:48 GMT -6
Hi AZ I'm going to take your post as well meaning and that it is not your intention to discredit me in the eyes of fellow posters. I cannot accept what you have written because it is personal and negative .I'm saying this because at a later date someone such as yourself might be looking back on old posts and make the assumption that I agreed with your opinion. Cheers Richard It is well meaning Richard. I think you enjoy the debate. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 12, 2017 16:40:28 GMT -6
Hi AZ It is well meaning Richard. Thanks for that AZ you are an officer and a gentleman
I think you enjoy the debate. It would be a waste of time otherwise and the guys here are decent and it is possible to agree to disagree and there are no personals. Are you still on the other board? Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 14, 2017 9:22:16 GMT -6
I was looking for a map published by AZ when I chanced across the posts of a Gen Kuster . I was heartened but also disappointed when I found that Kuster had posted on exactly the same issues I had raised ; mission priority,decision making with zero intell, pulling the plug on the mission, failure to communicate, but beat me to it by 7 years. A relief that Im not the only mad f****r around here but disappointment that my material is not original.
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