|
Post by wild on Mar 8, 2017 17:38:42 GMT -6
OK Read on
Benteen played his hand brilliantly. If he had at this point taken control of the situation he would have been held responsible for not attempting to reach Custer. He would have been charged with mutiny. Instead he kept his powder dry doing absolutely nothing just awaiting the situation to deteriorate, as it surely would under the shell shocked Reno. He did not even organise the advance to Weir Point. Not until the Indians attacked did he show the leadership of which he was capable. So what was Benteen guilty of ? Perverting the military code ,disloyalty,betrayal and saving 400 lives. Hurrah Richard
|
|
|
Post by dave on Mar 8, 2017 20:06:56 GMT -6
Richard me Amigo “The truth may be stretched thin, but it never breaks, and it always surfaces above lies, as oil floats on water.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
You are without a doubt the closet thing to Don Quixote I have ever know, a man who tilts the windmills of life as they appear regardless of the opinions of others because they are there. You are implacable in your beliefs and will not be moved. This is a good trait to possess but it does cause some dings on you armor. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by george50 on Mar 8, 2017 20:08:44 GMT -6
Hi folks! Hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents worth in on this. I'm one of the new kids on the block and most definitely nowhere near as knowledgeable as most of you. So if I say something that is incorrect then please forgive me as I said I'm most definitely not an expert by no means. Actually I guess what I am doing here is asking some questions that maybe you folks can shed some light on for me. First off, the Martini note said "Benteen,come on, big village, bring packs, be quick" PS "bring packs" was this all that was in the note? Did Benteen know that Custer had split the command between Custer and Reno? Did Benteen receive orders other than the note to report specifically to Custer himself with the Pack train or was he supposed to bring the packs to either one of them. I mean, it seems that the note was kinda vague in some ways. If Benteen did not know that Custer had divided the force and if he didn't receive orders to come to Custer specifically (instead of Reno) then can it not be said that Benteen had partially fulfilled his orders when he caught up with Reno? Other than not having the pack train with him, that is. Which also brings to mind something else, in the note the packs are mentioned twice, Cooke seems to have placed a lot of emphasis on the packs. If Benteen did know that Custer's intentions were for him to come to him (Custer) directly then it would appear that Benteen was somewhat stuck between a rock and a hard spot. If he went ahead without the packs then he not only risked being killed with Custer but also a really nasty butt chewing from Custer for showing up without the packs. If he waited then he risked having his commander and colleagues killed and being accused of cowardice or deliberately hanging his boss out to dry in revenge. Either way it would seem that Benteen was in a no win situation. Well,that's just my two cents worth for what it's worth. And like I said earlier, I may be way out my league here, please go easy me. Thanks, George!
|
|
|
Post by dave on Mar 8, 2017 20:25:28 GMT -6
George welcome to the board! Your thoughts, ideas and questions are more than welcomed. There many posters here who are extremely knowledgeable. I am not one of them in a fashion, who will patiently answer questions as well as pointing out various sources which can expand you knowledge. All you have to do is be honest and willing to learn.
I am going to send you a PM with some past threads dealing with the "Benteen" note which is still being hotly debated almost 141 years later. I highly recommend each of these threads, post by post, to answer many of your questions and enable you to study this seminal American event in greater detail.
Welcome to the mix! Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by fred on Mar 8, 2017 20:54:27 GMT -6
Actually I guess what I am doing here is asking some questions that maybe you folks can shed some light on for me. First off, the Martini note said "Benteen,come on, big village, bring packs, be quick" PS "bring packs" was this all that was in the note? Did Benteen know that Custer had split the command between Custer and Reno? Did Benteen receive orders other than the note to report specifically to Custer himself with the Pack train or was he supposed to bring the packs to either one of them. I mean, it seems that the note was kinda vague in some ways. If Benteen did not know that Custer had divided the force and if he didn't receive orders to come to Custer specifically (instead of Reno) then can it not be said that Benteen had partially fulfilled his orders when he caught up with Reno? Other than not having the pack train with him, that is. Which also brings to mind something else, in the note the packs are mentioned twice, Cooke seems to have placed a lot of emphasis on the packs. If Benteen did know that Custer's intentions were for him to come to him (Custer) directly then it would appear that Benteen was somewhat stuck between a rock and a hard spot. If he went ahead without the packs then he not only risked being killed with Custer but also a really nasty butt chewing from Custer for showing up without the packs. If he waited then he risked having his commander and colleagues killed and being accused of cowardice or deliberately hanging his boss out to dry in revenge. Either way it would seem that Benteen was in a no win situation. Well,that's just my two cents worth for what it's worth. And like I said earlier, I may be way out my league here, please go easy me. Well, you may be the new kid on the block, but your post above is just about right square on the money. When Benteen received the note, he had no idea Custer split his command and no idea where Custer was, but events show Benteen may have though Custer was in the valley. The only indication Benteen had as to what was going on was the comments of SGT Kanipe and TMP Martini, neither of which proved accurate. The note itself was contradictory in that it told Benteen to be quick and to bring the packs. That changed Benteen's role considerably, because it put him in charge of the pack train. The "be quick" part at that time was virtually irrelevant because Benteen was already close to the river and less than two miles from Reno Hill... which brought him to an abrupt halt. Benteen detractors will try to tell you he received that note several miles east of the river and therefore did not hurry... or "be quick"... as the note demanded, but that is a canard, completely false. In a nutshell, when Benteen got that note he had no clue what was going on. It took him several minutes with Reno on the hilltop to figure it all out. You have been here before, but welcome back. Your post is extremely important because you have asked a good question and it will generate some good activity. I hope you hang around and contribute even more. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 1:14:50 GMT -6
The packs are not an issue and in no way impacked on Benteen's march to the LBH. He was several miles ahead of them and not in visual contact nor did he open communication with them even when they arrived on Reno hill.
As regards the note; command and control is a two way street. Without reporting to Custer that he had fulfilled his mission or was unable to do so he leaves his commander without vital information.
A question which must be asked IS were the lines of communication to Custer cut and did Benteen know this ?
Benteen was an experienced professional soldier and well used to the chaos of battle. He knew full well that to hesitate was to lose time and momentum hand the initiative to the enemy .Reno Hill was where he did all his dawdling.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 4:58:56 GMT -6
Richard
You seem to assume that things not written down did not happen. My real life experiences tell me lots of things are unrecorded. You do know that Benteen showed the Martin note to Reno and you do know that Reno took charge of the pack train. So do you think there could have been some conversation unrecorded regarding the pack train?
I think the dilemma of where to take the pack train was resolved by the Indians aggression toward the small unsupported Reno advance guard in the valley.
What makes you think that Benteen moved slower than the pack train? I think it was not long after the last mules came up that he moved out. He then leap frogged ahead of the pack train and stayed within sight of it while being able to observe in the direction of the Big Village and some of the action on the east side of the river. Then sufficient numbers of Indians were observed moving toward them and Reno ordered them back to Reno Hill.
So if Benteen stuck with the pack train he would have never made to Reno Hill. Right?
I think the note created a problem without which Benteen would be unburdened by the rate of travel of the pack train.
Why if you are after Indians that can pack up and flee fast are you trying to chase them with a slow moving pack train?
Had Custer decided the Indians were not going to flee?
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 5:27:24 GMT -6
Richard
Being ahead of the pack train in Reno Creek means Benteen would contact any substantial force of Indians coming across ford A before they could see the pack train. The pack train could handle any small force with the rear guard.
I get that you don't understand the pack mules and how the lead can move a lot faster than the problem and slower mules. The closer you get to making contact the tighter the pack mules must be. I believe they did exactly that when McDougall moved to the front of the pack train. Closing up creates another problem. The faster mules get to rest and the slower mules keep on moving with last ones most likely get no rest at all and they are ones that need to rest the most. So now they must climb out of Reno Creek and up to Reno Hill area. Pvt Thompson's horse walks all the way from FAL but fails to make it up to the Reno Hill area in time to see where Custer went. So it can be assured that the closed up pack train was again spread out and would not all arrive at the same time on Reno Hill. Any deficit in information to the pack train was resolved by Hare don't you think? Is it also a hint that Reno was beginning to take charge of the movement of the pack train?
What is missing is all the chaos of what was really happening on Reno Hill that kept Reno and Benteen occupied. We have dead officers and wounded soldiers, straggling soldiers climbing to the bluffs, horses temporality blown from climbing to the bluffs, and pack train with a tail end moving slow. The location in regards to observations is blocked by Weir. It would seem to me that if Reno and Benteen weren't so busy doing something they should have sent someone to make observations. I think that is what Weir did and though without orders it was a good decision. Edgerly relied on previous conversations and followed Weir without orders. What we do know is that Weir himself went no further than the first observation point where he could see what was going on and what might be coming toward the Reno location.
I think a hint can be taken from what persons claim to hear. Some think that persons are lying if they don't hear the same sound. I know that is not true. If you are engaged in conversation or mentally engaged you can ignore sounds as if they did not occur. The sound level was most likely close to conversation level if the shots are several miles away. Anyone not doing something at the time could easily hear them. The duration of the sound would indicate a volley. So the point is that everyone can be telling the truth with those that were busy not hearing shots and those not so occupied being able to hear shots at a distance.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Mar 9, 2017 8:24:03 GMT -6
George: Welcome! You queries about Benteen are right on and I agree with your assumptions:
Wild: <A question which must be asked IS were the lines of communication to Custer cut and did Benteen know this?>
Benteen knew NOTHING! End of story or we can keep going around and around in a Greek Dance . . . have lots of fun . . . but not go anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 8:33:28 GMT -6
Hi AZ I never said thet Benteen's speed was in any way related to the packs quiet the opposite.I said that Benteen was indifferent to the packs.
There were 3 parties to the note. Benteen did not attempt to open communication with the other two parties.The units in the advance and the units to the rear were left without vital intell.
Force protection is a reason in itself wheather there is immediate danger or not. Best practice that everyone is on their toes and reading from the same hymn sheet. The packs were left in ignorance. Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 10:25:17 GMT -6
Hi AZ I never said thet Benteen's speed was in any way related to the packs quiet the opposite.I said that Benteen was indifferent to the packs. Then that is your error. Benteen waited for the pack train to close up on Reno Hill and then moved out with Reno bringing up the pack train and wounded.There were 3 parties to the note. Benteen did not attempt to open communication with the other two parties.The units in the advance and the units to the rear were left without vital intell. You keep saying like they had radios and Benteen failed to key the mike. Martin was told to come back if safe so if Martin didn't come back to Custer it was not safe. You are wasting your time to think that someone could ride to Custer and back. While waiting and moving to Weir Reno had ordered Weir to open communications with Custer. Lots of Indians willing to fight prevented horseback communications and the radio was not in use.Force protection is a reason in itself wheather there is immediate danger or not. Best practice that everyone is on their toes and reading from the same hymn sheet. The packs were left in ignorance. Cheers Richard Apparently you do not understand that at the divide they were moving to contact with lots of Indians as described by the scouts after seeing the size of the horse herds. Any person and especially McDougall would know the general distance to be traveled and well aware that he was getting closer all the time while moving toward the LBH. Benteen had nothing to add to that and complied with the note making the best available decision.
Benteen knew something you apparently can't understand. The default for the pack train and rear guard is to follow Custer and the order to speed up was delivered by Kanipe. That would assume there was an order to go less than as fast as they could to begin with. There is nothing that you are suggesting that changes anything. You would have a better argument if the note to Benteen stated park the pack and bring up only ammunition mules. but Custer had not fired a shot. Benteen would have no knowledge of Custer's distance after Martin received the message.
I think you should study communications in close proximity to lots of Indians. We know Reno sent some communicators to Custer because their bodies were found. Custer opened a communication gap when he crossed MTC that destroyed his ability to communicate with the whole regiment.
So at the time Custer sent the note to Benteen just how far ahead of the pack train was he? You seem to think that Benteen was to far ahead in Reno Creek based upon what? Wasn't Custer comfortable with leaving Reno Creek without communicating with Reno, Benteen, pack train and Rear Guard?
You keep pointing to Benteen being 7 miles ahead of the pack train which many people question. It could have been the last place he saw it and he would have no knowledge like we do with hindsight that the pack train did move on. It could be an error with Benteen stating several instead of seven. It makes no difference since no large body of Indians could get past Benteen.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 10:54:14 GMT -6
crhrs
Benteen knew NOTHING! End of story or we can keep going around and around in a Greek Dance . . . have lots of fun . . . but not go anywhere. I'v been saying all along that Benteen knew nothing and it was on nothing he made his decision to pull the plug on the mission. Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 11:24:22 GMT -6
Hi AZ Apparently you do not understand that at the divide they were moving to contact with lots of Indians as described by the scouts after seeing the size of the horse herds. Any person and especially McDougall would know the general distance to be traveled and well aware that he was getting closer all the time while moving toward the LBH. Benteen had nothing to add to that and complied with the note making the best available decision. What had changed was that they had found the big village.That the unit ahead of the packs was the advance guard for the packs and that action had commenced. The packs altered formation when Mathey questioned a retreating Indian and when he saw what he took to be an engagement on Reno Hill.
As for Custer's command an acknowedgement of the order to the effect that the units requested were advancing with all haste was necessary for Custer to deploy his command.
I imagine in your marine training AZ that when on the firing range you repeated all orders yes? It's a device by which the range commander assertains that everyone has heard and understands the firing order. My weapon was mortars ... when a fire order was given we called out the sight switches and number of rounds. Same with Custer he can only act when he get's acknowledgement and confirmation from the units under orders. You are agrueing that there are no communication drills or protocols.
Wasn't Custer comfortable with leaving Reno Creek without communicating with Reno, Benteen, pack train and Rear Guard? He ordered Reno to attack and Benteen to come on with packs.
You keep pointing to Benteen being 7 miles ahead of the pack train which many people question. It could have been the last place he saw it and he would have no knowledge like we do with hindsight that the pack train did move on. It could be an error with Benteen stating several instead of seven. It makes no difference since no large body of Indians could get past Benteen. Benteen says 7 miles. The pack train was easy pickings. Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 13:09:06 GMT -6
An army is a system and each of it's component parts are systems down to the humble infantry section and the life blood of systems is intell. Now AZ and the rest of you guys advocate adhockery ,exceptions, excuses and the get out of jail "best available decision" to support Benteen's non decision making performance. Communicating with the packs may have been no more than domestic but it is where you calibrate your system of communication in fact it goes right down to the trooper, that is where you find your "Sir yes Sir" communication. What is the most important piece of intell that arrives on Benteen's desk ? We have found a big village. And what does he do with it ? Leaves it in the in tray. The US Navy had intell... date and time of the attack on Pearl Harbour. Wasn't passed on to the defences. Was a wrecked battalion and the fact that Benteen was halting his command not of some interest to Custer?
|
|
|
Post by dave on Mar 9, 2017 13:14:26 GMT -6
AZ your statement:
"What is missing is all the chaos of what was really happening on Reno Hill that kept Reno and Benteen occupied. We have dead officers and wounded soldiers, straggling soldiers climbing to the bluffs, horses temporally blown from climbing to the bluffs, and pack train with a tail end moving slow. The location in regards to observations is blocked by Weir. It would seem to me that if Reno and Benteen weren't so busy doing something they should have sent someone to make observations. I think that is what Weir did and though without orders it was a good decision. Edgerly relied on previous conversations and followed Weir without orders. What we do know is that Weir himself went no further than the first observation point where he could see what was going on and what might be coming toward the Reno location."
This is one of the clearest and most accurate observations I have ever read dealing with the situation facing Benteen upon his arrival at Reno's position. Your combat experience has enabled you to visualize the existing chaos and share this scene clearly for me and others who have no concept of the melee existing. I can better understand Benteen's actions seeing Weir advance and why he followed and ignored Reno's recall. If this observation movement was called for, why not continue on and make the investigation?
Wild's continual effort to castigate Benteen is futile especially when seen in the light of your post. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you, montrose, benteen, Fred and other combat veterans attempting to respond to those of us who have no idea of what the hell we are posting about. Thank God I have not had your experiences because as Dark Cloud would say " I am a coward."
Great post Steve and thank you for the insight which has really enabled me to better understand the actions and causes of Benteen, Weir, Reno and the others. Regards Dave
|
|